Virtually all Iraq's utilities below pre invasion levels

flavio

Banned
Re: Virtually all Iraq's utilities below preinvasion levels

Gato_Solo said:
For those in the know...it takes a minimum of 4 years unless you get STEP promoted...and that will only get you one stripe. So that lowers it to 3 years. Most don't get to the NCO ranks until 5, or 6...;)
So that's been the plan from the beginning? To train Iraq defense for 3-4 years....:rofl4:
 

flavio

Banned
chcr said:
I'm sorry that you don't get it. Not surprised, just sorry. :shrug:
I get it. Facts in "popular media" can be ignored when you don't like them. I'm not surprised either....many people here do it all the time.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
Re: Virtually all Iraq's utilities below preinvasion levels

flavio said:
So that's been the plan from the beginning? To train Iraq defense for 3-4 years....:rofl4:
Yep, I'd think so. It doesn't take that many of our military to do that,
but there is still fighting going on.
We are still in a lot of other places too, helping train....many years later now, I bleieve. :blank:
 

flavio

Banned
No, there never was much of a plan at all. They're just winging it.

This wasn't about Iraq being a threat and if there wasn't any postwar plan it sure wasn't about "Iraqi freedom",

Why would Bremer fire 500,000 state workers....most of them soldiers?

Virtually every major decision Bremer made in his position as the American czar in Iraq was wrong - from disenfranchising every member of the Baath Party from a future in Iraq, to discharging and sending home the entire Iraqi army, with their AK-47s and explosive anger, to shutting down the newspaper and arresting the chief lieutenant of Shiite dissident cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and not preparing for a mini-war with him and his followers.
Source...
 

chcr

Too cute for words
flavio said:
I get it. Facts in "popular media" can be ignored when you don't like them. I'm not surprised either....many people here do it all the time.

:rofl: Yeah, that's exactly right. Interesting how the "facts" always support your position, isn't it?

Re the "plan." IMO, the administration knew what they were going to do about Iraq from the beginning (yes, even before 9/11). All the conflicting bullshit that came after is the result of them backing and filling when their justifications have had holes poked in them. The "plan" was always to invade Iraq though, so in that sense there was a plan. Just not a particularly good one.
 

flavio

Banned
chcr said:
Re the "plan." IMO, the administration knew what they were going to do about Iraq from the beginning (yes, even before 9/11). All the conflicting bullshit that came after is the result of them backing and filling when their justifications have had holes poked in them. The "plan" was always to invade Iraq though, so in that sense there was a plan. Just not a particularly good one.
I'll agree with you there. Maybe firing the whole army and taking forever to train new security was part of the plan after all. It can be used as excuse to keep us there.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
flavio said:
I'll agree with you there. Maybe firing the whole army and taking forever to train new security was part of the plan after all. It can be used as excuse to keep us there.
I don't understand ...now, why would we want to stay there?

I'll get on board that Bush was looking for the right excuse to go back to Iraq.
One of My own theories.
 

chcr

Too cute for words
flavio said:
I'll agree with you there. Maybe firing the whole army and taking forever to train new security was part of the plan after all. It can be used as excuse to keep us there.

I don't know. I think they planned to be out before now.
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
Nope did we leave Germany in '3-4' years?
Japan Korea Bosnia?

nope
nope
nope
nope

'we' can be anywhere's anytime 'we' want

now where in 'the world' is Gato? heh heh
 

chcr

Too cute for words
Winky said:
Nope did we leave Germany in '3-4' years?
Japan Korea Bosnia?

nope
nope
nope
nope

'we' can be anywhere's anytime 'we' want

now where in 'the world' is Gato? heh heh

All true Wink. I really think that this administration believed that this time they could though. People don't learn from history.
 

unclehobart

New Member
I don't see how they thought they could get out so quickly by using 1/3 the manpower needed. High tech may win the wars, but it doesn't help rebuild. You need manpower for that... the more the merrier.
 

flavio

Banned
Here's some pre-war opinions of how many troops would be needed and how much it could cost.

In a contentious exchange over the costs of war with Iraq, the Pentagon's second-ranking official today disparaged a top Army general's assessment of the number of troops needed to secure postwar Iraq. House Democrats then accused the Pentagon official, Paul D. Wolfowitz, of concealing internal administration estimates on the cost of fighting and rebuilding the country.

Mr. Wolfowitz, the deputy defense secretary, opened a two-front war of words on Capitol Hill, calling the recent estimate by Gen. Eric K. Shinseki of the Army that several hundred thousand troops would be needed in postwar Iraq, "wildly off the mark." Pentagon officials have put the figure closer to 100,000 troops. Mr. Wolfowitz then dismissed articles in several newspapers this week asserting that Pentagon budget specialists put the cost of war and reconstruction at $60 billion to $95 billion in this fiscal year. He said it was impossible to predict accurately a war's duration, its destruction and the extent of rebuilding afterward.

"We have no idea what we will need until we get there on the ground," Mr. Wolfowitz said at a hearing of the House Budget Committee. "Every time we get a briefing on the war plan, it immediately goes down six different branches to see what the scenarios look like. If we costed each and every one, the costs would range from $10 billion to $100 billion." Mr. Wolfowitz's refusal to be pinned down on the costs of war and peace in Iraq infuriated some committee Democrats, who noted that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Mitchell E. Daniels Jr., the budget director, had briefed President Bush on just such estimates on Tuesday.


In his testimony, Mr. Wolfowitz ticked off several reasons why he believed a much smaller coalition peacekeeping force than General Shinseki envisioned would be sufficient to police and rebuild postwar Iraq. He said there was no history of ethnic strife in Iraq, as there was in Bosnia or Kosovo. He said Iraqi civilians would welcome an American-led liberation force that "stayed as long as necessary but left as soon as possible," but would oppose a long-term occupation force. And he said that nations that oppose war with Iraq would likely sign up to help rebuild it. "I would expect that even countries like France will have a strong interest in assisting Iraq in reconstruction," Mr. Wolfowitz said. He added that many Iraqi expatriates would likely return home to help.

Enlisting countries to help to pay for this war and its aftermath would take more time, he said. "I expect we will get a lot of mitigation, but it will be easier after the fact than before the fact," Mr. Wolfowitz said. Mr. Wolfowitz spent much of the hearing knocking down published estimates of the costs of war and rebuilding, saying the upper range of $95 billion was too high, and that the estimates were almost meaningless because of the variables. Moreover, he said such estimates, and speculation that postwar reconstruction costs could climb even higher, ignored the fact that Iraq is a wealthy country, with annual oil exports worth $15 billion to $20 billion. "To assume we're going to pay for it all is just wrong," he said.
Some estimates now are 1-2 trillion.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
unclehobart said:
High tech may win the wars, but it doesn't help rebuild. You need manpower for that... the more the merrier.

Yep. We sent lots of non-military guys over there (it's not the militaries job to rebuild) and they're being shot at, shot, kidnapped, beheaded, blown up & put up with a whole sundry of other unpleasant things (like no alcohol & nekid wimins) so there aren't enough.

Add in the languange barrier to training & the fact that this state hadn't been infrastructured in 50 years & the problem gets almost unbearable.

Then we have the allies to the terrorist faction (like the one here) that are looking to undermine our efforts (sounds like 1971 huh).

The job is succeeding, slower than anticipated, but it is coming along, no matter what some people think.
 

freako104

Well-Known Member
chcr said:
All true Wink. I really think that this administration believed that this time they could though. People don't learn from history.


And then doomed to repeat it. To quote you we repeat it ad infitum
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
Ware the hell did yous all git the idea we ever
planned to 'leave'?

Heck alls thats left is too conquer Iran and it will be:



image.php
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Winky said:
Ware the hell did yous all git the idea we ever
planned to 'leave'?

Misawa Airfield

Misawa Shelling Range

Yokosuka Naval Base (7th fleet)

Atsugi Naval Airfield

Zama Camp

Kure Base

Iwakuni Airfield

Itazuke Airfield

Sasebo Naval Base

North Training Ground

Henoko Munitions Depot

Camp Schwab

Camp Hansen

Kin Red Beach Ground

Blue Beach Exercise Ground

Camp Cortney

White Beach

Kadena Airfield

Camp Zukeran

Futenma Airbase

Naha Por
 

samcurry

Screwing with the code...
Staff member
well i can speak first hand on the water supplies. We are supplying huge water filteration to them. And guess what the stupid fuckers destroy them or have taken hostage their own people that are trying to bring them over. SO i dont feel for them.
I suspect the other utilities are the same. Pretty sad that they complain about how bad it is when its their own fuckin countrymen stopping the progress.
So do i feel any more sorry for their stupidity? NO
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
samcurry said:
well i can speak first hand on the water supplies. We are supplying huge water filteration to them. And guess what the stupid fuckers destroy them or have taken hostage their own people that are trying to bring them over. SO i dont feel for them.
I suspect the other utilities are the same. Pretty sad that they complain about how bad it is when its their own fuckin countrymen stopping the progress.
So do i feel any more sorry for their stupidity? NO

I know! Let's send flavio. I'm sure he can come up with a solution. After all. He can find all the mistakes to harp on, so I'm sure he has some good ideas...:rolleyes:
 

flavio

Banned
samcurry said:
SO i dont feel for them.

So do i feel any more sorry for their stupidity? NO
That's kind of a strange way to look at it. If Gato had no water at his house and Gonz kept setting off road bombs which kept anyone from getting there to fix it you wouldn't feel for Gato at all?

Regardless, if you don't feel for the Iraqis at all I suppose you must want us to get everyone out of there as soon as possible.
 
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