Why drilling won't help with the oil crisis

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Dude...you said that Big Oil won WWII

That's right and damned right.

Never denied I said that because it is true.

"Big oil" supplied the most necessary tool to winning the war that was needed. Their products ran the tanks, planes, and ships the people who fought the war needed to fight and win. Without "Big oil" the factories would not have been able to turn out the materiel necessary to winning.

Without "Big oil" all of the tanks, ships, and planes would have been nothing more than a large paperweight and the people fighting would have been out there with sticks and rocks.

"Big oil" won WWII
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Big Oil was selling oil to all sides of the war..including Nazi Germany. American Essolube and British Shell were supplying/selling oil to the invaders until they too were targetted.

Standard Oil was refining airplane fuel to the Germans when they ran out. I.G. Farben was selling 1/2 the high-octane fuel to Germany right until the end.

Big Oil didn't take sides in WWII. They didn't win the war for the allies any more than they lost it for Germany. Big Oil played the middle and made a mint.
 

spike

New Member
Without "Big oil" all of the tanks, ships, and planes would have been nothing more than a large paperweight and the people fighting would have been out there with sticks and rocks.

Geezus Jim, your logic is all screwed up again. Without steel there would have been no tanks, ships, and planes...so big steel won WW2? Without food the people operating those machines wouldn't have made it....so big food won WW2? Without clothes the people would have died from exposure...so Big Clothes won WW2? Without sex there would have been no people to fight....so Big Sex won WW2?

Think man.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Big Oil was selling oil to all sides of the war..including Nazi Germany. American Essolube and British Shell were supplying/selling oil to the invaders until they too were targetted.

Standard Oil was refining airplane fuel to the Germans when they ran out. I.G. Farben was selling 1/2 the high-octane fuel to Germany right until the end.

Big Oil didn't take sides in WWII. They didn't win the war for the allies any more than they lost it for Germany. Big Oil played the middle and made a mint.

Perhaps what you have written was true before the war; but not during.

Standard Oil did not sell oil to Germany, or Japan, or Italy, or their allies during the war. They fueled the war machine that those people -- Americans, Brits, Aussies, et al -- who fought the war used to win.

"Big oil" won WWII

Without "Big oil" the war would have been medieval hand-to-hand combat.

Without "Big oil" there would be no power to drive the steel plants.

Without "Big oil" food production would have fallen to manual planting, tilling, and harvesting.

Without "Big oil" there would have been no way to get war materiel to the front.

Without "Big oil" there would have been no way to distribute goods to those fighting the war on the home front.

"BIG OIL" WON WWII
 

spike

New Member
Perhaps what you have written was true before the war; but not during.

Standard Oil did not sell oil to Germany, or Japan, or Italy, or their allies during the war. They fueled the war machine that those people -- Americans, Brits, Aussies, et al -- who fought the war used to win.

"Big oil" won WWII

Without them, the war would have been medieval hand-to-hand combat.

Without "Big oil" there would be no power to drive the steel plants.

Without "Big oil" food production would have fallen to manual planting, tilling, and harvesting.

Without "Big oil" there would have been no way to get war materiel to the front.

Without "Big oil" there would have been no way to doistribute goods to those fighting the war on the home front.

"BIG OIL" WON WWII

Your logic is all screwed up again. Without steel there would have been no tanks, ships, and planes...so big steel won WW2? Without food the people operating those machines wouldn't have made it....so big food won WW2? Without clothes the people would have died from exposure...so Big Clothes won WW2? Without sex there would have been no people to fight....so Big Sex won WW2!
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Arguing with you is like talking to a brick wall... nothing seems to get through.

You tell me your firmly held beliefs from which you will not budge; and I tell you my firmly held beliefs from which I will not budge. It is a discourse, not an intervention.

I am not going to change due to your arguments any more than you are going to change due to my arguments. I have no goal of changing you or your beliefs; yet your disappointment in my unwillingness to change indicates that you are here to do exactly that to me. Get over it.

There are points upon which we will agree; but on the vast landscape we are exact opposites. That will remain so. We will both continue to post our own "truths" as we believe them. Sometimes you will, and have, catch me in an inaccuracy; and there are times I will, and have, catch you in an inaccuracy. That's life. The real question is of one's ability to admit when they have been inaccurate.

:shrug:
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
I'm not above a little dissonance...and I have changed my mind about certain things (Global warming for one)..mostly because I try and take in as many viewpoints and as much information as possible. I'll visit Fox and Huffington on the same news item specifically for this ideal...the more information you have, the less spin gets in the way.

I am/was trying to show you that Big Oil had only one objective (as they do today)...make as much money as possible regardless of who they help and who they hinder. You can call them apolitical if it helps...I prefer to call them mercenary.

You claimed that Big Oil helped win WWII... I try to point out that Big Oil played a neutral role in WWII - not politically neutral, but financially neutral.

If they had denied access to oil and finished product to Nazi Germany - I would whole-heartedly agree with you that Big Oil won WWII...but historically speaking, that's not the case. If they had denied access to Oil to Japan, again I would agree...but it was the military blokade that denied the oil to Japan. Big Oil would've been more than happy to sell the oil to Japan..but they couldn't. Not WOULDN'T...but COULDN'T.

I'm not denying that oil doesn't play a part in the economy...there are plastics, roads, heating, power and fuel/transport considerations. I'm saying that striving to remove oil from the point of a necessity and moving it simply to that of a commodity will do more to remove the stranglehold that Big Oil, and more specifically the Middle-East, has on the economy.

I'm also saying that increasing supply is a stop-gap measure, at best...but it's effect on the demand is negative. The only way to affect the demand is through alternative sources of energy. And affecting demand is the only long-term method of affecting price and eventually getting out of Big Oil's stranglehold.

I'm asking you to consider this argument. If it doesn't change your mind, so be it...but getting defensive shouldn't be your first responce. Getting louder (via font-size and typefaces) isn't helping either.

If you can come up with alternative solutions and follow-through with numbers and economic arguments for your point of view...I'll consider them. If it doesn't change my mind...so be it. We agree to disagree.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
I'm also saying that increasing supply is a stop-gap measure, at best...but it's effect on the demand is negative. The only way to affect the demand is through alternative sources of energy. And affecting demand is the only long-term method of affecting price and eventually getting out of Big Oil's stranglehold.

Those are the same arguments used after the 'oil crisis' during the 1980's. Fact is...it doesn't matter. If you notice...the price of oil dropped below 100 USD per barrel, and is looking to fall further. Why? Demand in the US is dropping. Funny how just the threat of drilling can be linked to that drop, innit? What you refuse to understand is that drilling will bring up supply, and slow the continued flow of wealth from the West to the Middle East. What you refuse to understand is that, during those 10 years it takes to get that oil out of the ground, we can invest in the technologies necessary to get off the teat. What you refuse to understand is that there is no way that drilling will hurt the current situation...only help. Go ahead...bring up the environment yet again, and I'll point to Cuba and China drilling to their heart's content less than 90 miles from the coast of Florida with no legal ramifications.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
I tend to look at the science and history of the issue. I look for that which strengthens the contentions on my side of the debate. Yes, there are things which will mitigate those findings but I investigate those contentions for veracity. Usually, I find that the contentions are false driven by politics and agendae. Global warming, as you have mentioned, is one of those issues. Upon investigation, one finds that the "models" will ignore the obvious -- the sun, sunspots, water vapor, history, etc. -- and concentrate on the peripheral causes. My problem is that they have been successful at the highest levels of government. Look at what Biden said in the debate:

IFILL: Senator, what is true and what is false about the causes?

BIDEN: Well, I think it is manmade. I think it's clearly manmade. And, look, this probably explains the biggest fundamental difference between John McCain and Barack Obama and Sarah Palin and Joe Biden -- Gov. Palin and Joe Biden.

If you don't understand what the cause is, it's virtually impossible to come up with a solution. We know what the cause is. The cause is manmade. That's the cause. That's why the polar icecap is melting.

My contentions are that without "Big oil" -- and you will notice that I always enclose the words "Big oil" in quotes because "Big oil" is a disparaging term invented by the opponents of oil -- the war machine would have ground to a halt.

The production of materiel would have ground to a halt at home.

The delivery of the available war materiel to the warriors fighting the war would have ground to a halt.

According to THIS SITE Germany accessed its oil from synthesizing, Rumania, Germany, Austria, and Poland.

Report on German oil production, by R. Holroyd
"Most of the Rumanian/ Hungarian oil products were supplied direct to
the armed forces in the Eastern areas [...] The total Rumanian crude
production was said to be roughly 6,000,000 tons/year. [...] German
oil production: 1,920,000 tons/yeare, some 8-900,000 came from the
Austrian fields, 6-700,000 tons/year from the Hanover district,
2000,000 tons/year from Heide and the remainder from Baden and the
Polish frontier area. The German crudes, particularly those from
Austria which contained only 5-7% petrol, were particularly good for
lubricating oil production"
Page 15 of pdf
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Bureau_of_Mines/info_circ/ic_7370/ic_7370_sec18.pdf

The site goes on to discuss the increasing role of synthetic fuels throughout the war.

Before WWII, the United States supplied 80% of Japan's oil. THIS SITE discusses the sources of oil before and during the war. As I said, "Japan loaded the last of their petroleum into their ships and planes and struck out for Hawaii." The site confirms this:

The oil stock Japan had was only for a year and half, and time was running out. The Japanese leaders had to make up their minds as quickly as possible. If the war was unavoidable and they chose to fight, the longer they would wait the lesser the chance for victory would be because of the limited oil stock, which would be spent even during the peace time.

Your contention is that IF American oil companies COULD have sold oil to enemy nation states that they WOULD have sold oil to those enemy nation states. That may have been true in the larger scheme of things if a declared state of war had not existed. Roosevelt likely exceeded his authority with the Japanese oil embargo but that is a discussion for another day.

Seeing the debate from your side of the equation it could easily be stated "Big oil" caused WWII. They were the ones which supplied oil to the Japanese and got them addicted to oil. Once they were forcibly removed from the teat they became like any other addict taken off their substance and grabbed a gun and headed for the liquor store.

Your statement that "Big Oil had only one objective (as they do today)...make as much money as possible regardless of who they help and who they hinder." merely states the goal of capitalist entities in a capitalist system of which the United States is unashamedly included. I am a firm defender of the Capitalist system. Nothing else works better. Never has. Never will.

I have never been for depleting our resources before the other guy depletes his. I have been in favor of leaving our resources in the ground and using up the other guys resources.

However, the world economy and the upsurge in enemy nation states which wish the United States to be destroyed, and using the money we buy their products to that end, I would suggest that now is the time to start using our resources and developing them into viable sources of energy to mitigate this threat.

You asked for viable alternatives besides drilling for oil?

Coal, of which we have centuries worth;

Nuclear, which is the only "clean" source of energy;

Shale oil which was not viable when oil was $20 per barrel;

Hemp, which grows in poor soil and does not require the displacement of food producing lands;

And my personal favorite of which you may be unaware, THERMAL DEPOLYMERIZATION which is not viable at this time but holds great promise.

So there ya have it. It is not like I haven't done my homework.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Within this debate it must be always kept in mind that the Law of Conservation of Energy always comes to play.

Oil is the only resource which creates energy for less than what it takes to extract because the energy spent to create it was expended by natural forces long ago.

Hydrogen takes as much energy to extract as the energy it will produce. Hydrogen does not exist in the natural environment.

Electric cars will take as much energy to charge them as the amount of work which can be extracted. As more electric cars come on line the demand will quickly outstrip resources or the means to produce the energy they require. The same people demanding them are the same ones who will stand in the way of new generating plants to feed them.

Wind power requires that oil, coal, gas, and nuclear plants stay on line to make up for the shortfalls when the wind does not blow. Those plants can not simply be switched on and off at will. Commerce cannot run on wind power. This was discussed at great length HERE and HERE.
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
I'll have to rebut tomorrow..busy day today. A few things to look up.
1) How many oil-wells have reached a point where water/methane/natural gas/CO2 must be pumped into the ground in order to continue getting the oil out?
2) How much energy must be used to transport crude to refining centres, energy used to refine, energy used to re-transport fuel?
2) Hydro-electric power as a low-intake, high-output source of energy.
3) Solar-cell power used to split H2O into H2 and O2
 

spike

New Member
Pizza Oven + Inkjet Printer + Nail Polish = Solar Cell?!

Solar Power for Developing Countries
Nicole Kuepper, a 23 years old PhD student and lecturer in the school of photovoltaic and renewable energy engineering at the University of NSW, might have just found a way to make the world a better place. Her patented technology isn't quite as simple as the title of this post would lead you to believe, but it should nonetheless reduce the cost and technical requirements of making solar cells.

Electricity for the World's Poorest 2 Billion People
The processes she developed for the iJET solar cell don't require the very expensive clean rooms and high-temperature ovens of traditional solar panel manufacturing plants, but rather pizza ovens, nail polish and inkjet printers, making them accessible to developing countries.



Australian Museum Eureka Prizes
Ms Kuepper's solar breakthrough won two Australian Museum Eureka Prizes, the most prestigious scientific prize in Australia. "The 23-year-old took out the people's choice award as well as the prize for young leader in environmental science and climate change."



While it could take five years to commercialise the patented technology, providing renewable energy to homes in some of the least developed countries would enable people to "read at night, keep informed about the world through radio and television and refrigerate life-saving vaccines". And it would also help reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Ms Kuepper said that the solar cells should be of high enough quality to be used anywhere in the world, including Australia.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/08/pizza-oven-nail-polish-inkjet-printer-solar-panels.php
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
I'll have to rebut tomorrow..busy day today. A few things to look up.

1) How many oil-wells have reached a point where water/methane/natural gas/CO2 must be pumped into the ground in order to continue getting the oil out?

Search on steam flood, water / salt water flood, and Enhanced Oil Recovery. Try THIS SITE starting at page 8. You might find something HERE as well.

2) How much energy must be used to transport crude to refining centres, energy used to refine, energy used to re-transport fuel?

Not enough to force the national average price per gallon above $3.484 / gallon this week. It never made it past $4.12 / gallon.

Note HERE that the price of gas is still dropping.

mogas_chart.gif


2) Hydro-electric power as a low-intake, high-output source of energy.

Try to build a dam in this country where dams are being torn down to accomodate the fish.

3) Solar-cell power used to split H2O into H2 and O2

That would be 12,062.183 ampere-hours (1 Amp for 12,062.183 hours; or 12,062.183 Amps for one hour; or any combination thereof) of electrical energy per pound of Hydrogen.

There is also the problem with NOx being generated by the burning of atmospheric air. Your car has a NOx device on it to control the emissions.

Also, reafd up on HYDROGEN EMBRITTLEMENT.

Read THIS article but make sure you have your physics hat on.

You can look up something called the Electrochemical Equivalent of Hydrogen in many Reference books. It is the amount of electrical energy that exists in the chemical bonding of Hydrogen atoms inside of the molecules it exists in, such as water, H2O. Those Reference books show that 12,062.183 ampere-hours of electrical energy is required to release a single pound of Hydrogen from any chemical compound. This is a LOT of energy! It turns out that there are no "perfect" devices to do this, and the best tend to be around 20% efficient at getting the Hydrogen released, regarding the electricity used. So we actually need to use up around 60,000 ampere-hours of electrical energy in order to get one pound of Hydrogen released (and therefore available as a fuel). That is a LOT of electricity! Your kitchen toaster uses around 15 amps of electricity, for maybe 30 seconds. Here, we are talking about 100 amperes of electricity being used continuously for 600 hours or 25 days!

I was in the oil industry for a while several years ago on the technological side. My father-in-law is the inventor of the Welcomp Multiphase computerized oil well testing device which monitors oil, gas, and water output at the wellhead and gives instantaneous results. It replaces the conventional separator type well testers. I was the designer/drafter on the project.
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Those are the same arguments used after the 'oil crisis' during the 1980's. Fact is...it doesn't matter. If you notice...the price of oil dropped below 100 USD per barrel, and is looking to fall further. Why? Demand in the US is dropping. Funny how just the threat of drilling can be linked to that drop, innit? What you refuse to understand is that drilling will bring up supply, and slow the continued flow of wealth from the West to the Middle East. What you refuse to understand is that, during those 10 years it takes to get that oil out of the ground, we can invest in the technologies necessary to get off the teat. What you refuse to understand is that there is no way that drilling will hurt the current situation...only help. Go ahead...bring up the environment yet again, and I'll point to Cuba and China drilling to their heart's content less than 90 miles from the coast of Florida with no legal ramifications.

In the 1980's China and India weren't ramping up industrially as they are today adn in the near future.

..more to come.
 

spike

New Member
Those are the same arguments used after the 'oil crisis' during the 1980's. Fact is...it doesn't matter. If you notice...the price of oil dropped below 100 USD per barrel, and is looking to fall further. Why? Demand in the US is dropping. Funny how just the threat of drilling can be linked to that drop, innit?

It's funny that you would make that connection without any evidence. It's not there anything else going on economiclally that could be related. :rolleyes:

"NEW YORK (AP) — Oil prices swung higher Tuesday, snapping a four-day plunge as investors temporarily halted their frantic selling to see whether the government's sweeping economic bailout can stem a widening global downturn.

Light, sweet crude for November delivery rose $2.25 to settle at $90.06 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange, after earlier trading as high as $93.02.

Prices had lost nearly $13 in the past four trading sessions as a widening economic crisis spreads overseas and undercuts energy demand forecasts.

Despite Tuesday's modest advance, analysts said crude's fundamentals suggest prices are headed lower.

"We've just seen a huge shift in sentiment where the focus isn't on supply anymore. It's on demand, and that demand continues to weaken," said Jim Ritterbusch, president of energy consultancy Ritterbusch and Associates in Galena, Ill."


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5TtajgUpSm7KY5jf-lCJGHBB-tAD93LT9M00
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Those are the same arguments used after the 'oil crisis' during the 1980's. Fact is...it doesn't matter. If you notice...the price of oil dropped below 100 USD per barrel, and is looking to fall further. Why? Demand in the US is dropping. Funny how just the threat of drilling can be linked to that drop, innit? What you refuse to understand is that drilling will bring up supply, and slow the continued flow of wealth from the West to the Middle East. What you refuse to understand is that, during those 10 years it takes to get that oil out of the ground, we can invest in the technologies necessary to get off the teat. What you refuse to understand is that there is no way that drilling will hurt the current situation...only help. Go ahead...bring up the environment yet again, and I'll point to Cuba and China drilling to their heart's content less than 90 miles from the coast of Florida with no legal ramifications.
.. M'kay.

The price of oil is not strictly a supply/demand equation - except, of course, when it forces the prices upwards. The price of oil is more about 'futures' and 'speculation' than actual physical supply.

A hurricane works its way into the Gulf of Mexico..the price jumps on the assumption that platforms will be damaged..regardless of how many are actually damaged, shut down or for how long they're out of commission. A middle-easern antion rattles it's sabres and the prices jump upwards...
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
In the 1980's China and India weren't ramping up industrially as they are today adn in the near future.

..more to come.

This is true and is part of the current situation. It must be noted that China and India both subsidize their gas; and that encourages more usage. (There is some DEBATE on this, however, as recently some subsidies were removed.) Supplies went down but American demand stayed the same. The threat of drilling, combined with the current slippage in demand, has caused the price to slump below $100/bbl.
 
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