America-Love it or...

[ris]

there is an intersting parallel with britain, but it is more to do with the parts of the uk and their relationship with england than britain and the us.

edward II is known affectionately as 'hammer of the scots', much of what he did in wales has gone unoticed, unless you are welsh. he never quite succeeded in scotland, not the way he did previously in the princiaplity. when he was coronated owain glyndwr [sp?] refused to pay him homage, and then doubled his woes by ignoring edward's wedding. enraged edward wiped glyndwr out, and to make things doubly painful erected a ring of iron - massive castles and fortifications - around gwynneth and some south wales towns.

deemed subjected the welsh have been systematically denied a place in history, their language and culture has been squeezed from london, the welsh don't even have a representative in the later union flag. the reason is simple - wales is not really deemed a seperate country under the union, it is only a principality.

as na said - history is written by the winners. nothing of this history is taught in english schools. in wales it is fiercely defended and they feel they have been denied a place by english rule, just another pink bit in the map of empire.

it took me coming to live here, working closely with welsh speakers in an office, to learn this history. they accused me of being part of the english brainwash but they themselves knew nothing of my home county or upbringing. i was another ignorant saesneg, no better than edward.

 

[greenfreak]

By the way, the remark of Hawaiians not caring about how many people got killed in the WTC disaster was uncalled for. There were people from Hawai'i on the planes as well as in the WTC.

I don't want anyone to misjudge this comment by quoting Na from another thread about how she felt on September 11th:

I didn't know what to think or what to believe. We still didn't know the whole story. Honestly, the first thing I thought of - or people, I should say - was greenie and Huge and dart cause they were the only ones I knew that lived in New York ...

I went to work, as we always do ... the roads were eerily empty. My emotions focused on the loss of lives rather than the act of terrorism for some days ...

It was just a very no kind of day.

I know that Na cared about the people who were killed or affected by the WTC attacks and not just because there were Hawai'ians aboard the planes or in the buildings when they collapsed. I wanted to make sure that was clear so her words weren't taken the wrong way.

Some of us were already involved and said our peace the first time this was brought up on a different board. I've been wondering if I should post the thread here because there was a lot of information there that would clear up some questions. There were also some hurtful things said and much animosity involved. I decided to post the link anyway, so that Mitch at least can read it because although he has a differing opinion, he seems to want to learn about it. Which is more than I can say for a few who don't care to know and want to keep the blinders on. Either way, it's a subject that our Hawai'ian members feel very passionately about, as well as people who care about them.

One thing I do want to say also... In the US, you learn most of what you know of the world when you're in school. Your teachers teach what's in the textbooks. And the textbooks are written by people who shield children from the possibility that America is not all sweetness and pie. The lack of education on our neighboring countries (I'm talkin about you Canada) or the horrible things we've done to the original inhabitants of the US or hurting our own people and overthrowing smaller countries without their consent is something you will never hear in the classroom. I only know a handful of people who go out of their way to educate themselves constantly on the things you aren't told in school. I'm not saying that this is an excuse, I'm just saying that there are many who go through their lives that never know and you can't fault people for that. You also have to consider that the same propoganda that we experienced in school ("America is great!") could be at work in your country, in the opposite sense ("America is evil!").

I hope this thread can turn around and be better than it has been. I certainly don't want it to end the way the first thread did. Here is the start of the subject in that thread. I've said my peace there, and here. If you go this far, thanks for reading.

 

[Leslie]

Nice post, gf

 

[Luis G]

That has to be the thread i've read more times

 

[greenfreak]

Thanks ris

Luis, you should know about that thread. After all, you started the whole thing with your damn avatar.

 

[ol' man]

I know that Na cared about the people who were killed or affected by the WTC attacks

That is every one of us as Americans!

Most people who are over 18 knows what is up in this world! You think everyone that starts a political argument brings up their 7th grade History book? I don't think so! Every where you go the media is biased. Unfortunatly the wolrd is jealous of the US and in return all of their media's attention is aimed at slamming America and swaying peoples oppinions to hate the US. My wife is from Korea a very well educated country yet the BIAS is so strong there against the US! They only know what their teacher told them

 

[AlladinSane]

Most people who are over 18 knows what is up in this world!

You don't know how much you're wrong!

You think everyone that starts a political argument brings up their 7th grade History book? I don't think so! Every where you go the media is biased. Unfortunatly the wolrd is jealous of the US and in return all of their media's attention is aimed at slamming America and swaying peoples oppinions to hate the US. My wife is from Korea a very well educated country yet the BIAS is so strong there against the US! They only know what their teacher told them

I hope you don't think your own media is unbiased aswell...

 

[Luis G]

Luis, you should know about that thread. After all, you started the whole thing with your damn avatar.

Hence the permanent Evil title , i might bring back the avatar of discord in the future

 

[fury]

The lack of education on our neighboring countries (I'm talkin about you Canada) or the horrible things we've done to the original inhabitants of the US or hurting our own people and overthrowing smaller countries without their consent is something you will never hear in the classroom.

I have to disagree... I recall quite clearly from the 1st-4rd grade, hearing from my teachers about the relocation and isolation of the original population of native americans, among many other Very Bad Things™. But maybe it was just because it was the best elementary school in the state.

 

[greenfreak]

I was in first grade in 79, things may have changed. I recall being taught about Indians but nothing bad per se about what we put them through.

 

[Squiggy]

"Little Big Man" starring Dustin Hoffman....My favorite movie of all time. ..'Nuff said.

 

[ol' man]

Most people who are over 18 knows what is up in this world!

You don't know how much you're wrong!

You think everyone that starts a political argument brings up their 7th grade History book? I don't think so! Every where you go the media is biased. Unfortunatly the wolrd is jealous of the US and in return all of their media's attention is aimed at slamming America and swaying peoples oppinions to hate the US. My wife is from Korea a very well educated country yet the BIAS is so strong there against the US! They only know what their teacher told them

I hope you don't think your own media is unbiased aswell...

First off when one person brings to the debate,

"Your stupid!"

OR

"You don't know how much your wrong!"

I don't buy much of what they debate. Basically I quit listening.

Also yes indeed I know our media is biased here in the States! What do you expect when Ted Turner owns a news station

 

[ol' man]

@ your stupidity.

OMG, did i just read your post right? You do know that the Japanese BOMBED Hawaii because of the US presence in our land, don't you?

btw, I don't think native Alaskans like to be referred to as eskimos.

Why don't you talk to my wife and find out the atrocities that Japan did to the Koreans. O yeah sure Japan wanted to help the Hawaii'n people Yeah Japan was very nice to the Korean people! That is why most of their art and heritage was either destroyed or removed and brought to Japan and many people were killed. Why don't you tell us how many Hawaii'n people were killed in the "TAKEOVER" of the Hawaii'n islands bty US military!

Expressing the sense of Congress concerning the war crimes committed by the Japanese military during World War II.

Whereas during World War II the Government of Japan deliberately ignored and flagrantly violated the Geneva and Hague Conventions and committed atrocious crimes against humanity;

Whereas 33,587 members of the United States Armed Forces and 13,966 United States civilians were captured by the Japanese military in the Pacific Theater during World War II, confined in brutal prison camps, and subjected to severe shortages of food, medicine, and other basic necessities;

Whereas many of the United States military and civilian prisoners of the Japanese military during World War II were subjected to forced labor, starved and beaten to death, or summarily executed by beheading, firing squads, or immolation;

Whereas almost all of the United States military and civilian prisoners who were rescued from the Japanese military at the end of World War II were afflicted with diseases caused by malnutrition and deprivation and have suffered from life-long illnesses, psychological and emotional trauma, and financial hardships as a result of their experience during the war;

Whereas, of the United States prisoners held by the German military during World War II, 1.1 percent of the military prisoners and 3.5 percent of the civilian prisoners died during their imprisonment, but of the United States prisoners held by the Japanese military, 37.3 percent of the military prisoners and 11 percent of the civilian prisoners died during their imprisonment;

Whereas on December 8, 1941, the Japanese military bombed and invaded the island of Guam and occupied the island until the liberation of Guam by the United States Armed Forces on July 21, 1944;

Whereas the people of Guam were subjected to death, beheadings, rape and other violent acts, forced labor and marches, and imprisonment by the Japanese military during the occupation of Guam during World War II;

Whereas at the Japanese biochemical warfare detachment in Mukden, Manchuria, commanded by Dr. Shiro Ishii, experiments were conducted on living prisoners of war that included infecting prisoners with deadly toxins, including plague, anthrax, typhoid, and cholera;

Whereas at least 260 of the 1,500 United States prisoners believed to have been held at Mukden died during the first winter of their imprisonment and many of the 300 living survivors of Mukden claim to suffer from physical ailments resulting from their subjection to chemical and biological experiments;


Whereas the Japanese military invaded Nanjing, China, from December, 1937, until February, 1938, during the period known as the `Rape of Nanjing', and brutally and systematically slaughtered more than 300,000 Chinese men, women, and children and raped more than 20,000 women;

Whereas the Japanese military enslaved millions of Koreans during World War II and forced hundreds of thousands of women into sexual slavery for Japanese troops;

Whereas international jurists in Geneva, Switzerland ruled in 1993 that women who were forced to be sexual slaves of the Japanese military during World War II (known by the Japanese military as `comfort women') deserve at least $40,000 each as compensation for their `extreme pain and suffering';

http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/hcr98126.htm

Yeah the Japanese would have treated the Hawaii'n people nice! So how many Hawaii'ns did the US turn into sex slaves? How many did they starve? How many did they kill? Hawaii had two ways it could have been used in WWII. By the Japanese or the USA! I guarentee the US treated you much better than the Japanese would have!

I would reiterate your first line in the above quote here but as many know I don't resort to such infantile methods of debate!

 

[Squiggy]

"infantile methods of debate"?....You are not debating. You are spewing forth drivel that boils down to "America right or wrong". The fact that others may have done worse things or would have done worse things if given the chance, does not exonerate us of fault. We have our worts. If you're too sensitive to admit that, you probably shouldn't read these threads.

 

[A.B.Normal]

^^^^^^^ What He said^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[MitchSchaft]

Like their method of debate is commendable? I think not.

 

[Luis G]

Why don't you tell us how many Hawaii'n people were killed in the "TAKEOVER" of the Hawaii'n islands bty US military!
.....

Yeah the Japanese would have treated the Hawaii'n people nice! So how many Hawaii'ns did the US turn into sex slaves? How many did they starve? How many did they kill?

I assume you haven't read the other thread, i will quote from there.

I, on the other hand, am proud to be Hawaiian, and am disturbed that America came into my county illegally - imprisoned my rulers and literally beat my own grandparents for speaking and acting Hawaiian. Yes, my own grandparents. That wasn't too long ago, my grandmother was beaten in the 1920s at school for speaking Hawaiian.

the Caucasian man did the same thing to Hawaiians ... they came to our islands and "took over all the land from the people who were already there," and, yes, gradually wiping out our people. Do you know that at the time of contact in 1778, Hawaiians numbers 1,000,000+, and after contact with Caucasian diseases and oppressive policies, we were down to 29,000 at the time of annexation. That's a period of only 100 or so years. 971,000 people died off in only 100 years.

Have you ever been oppressed by any outside nation? Have your grandparents been beaten down for speaking and practicing their mother culture? Have your people been nearly wiped out by disease and murder in less than 100 years? Have you worked for years and years to get Hawaiian language back in the public school system and make it no longer against the law to be spoken in school? (No - I'm not kidding ... in 1984 it was still illegal to speak Hawaiian in public school - though French, Spanish, and Japanese were offered). Making uneducated statements isn't only ignorant, it's outright stupid. That's where I place blame - feeding the uneducated fire that runs rampant throughout the general public.

I think that covers pretty much of it.

 

[ol' man]

Sounds alot like what happend with the Indians and disease. I still have not found where it says we mass murdered them.

As for speaking and being Hawaiian? So how many Hawaiian people live in Hawaii now?

I found this.
http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popsd/pops15.htm

Attachment(s):

population.jpg, 22.58kb

 

[ol' man]

Hawaii Immigration Timeline
Hawaii is a land of immigrants, some ancient and some recent. Some estimate the population of Native Hawaiians in 1778 was 300,000, others believe it was much larger. The introduction of diseases unknown in isolated Hawaii decimated the population after European contact. The population of Hawaii decreased from first contact until 1872 when it hit a low of 56,000. The Hawaiian population was so low that sugar planters needed to import labor from other countries.

http://www.hawaiischoolreports.com/culture/immigration.htm

A estimated 300,000 to 56,000 because of disease. Sorry folks, I don't classify diseases as GUNNING them down

 

[ol' man]

When the first Asian groups came to Hawaii they easily mixed with the native Hawaiians, regardless of social standing. Social classes developed only when the Caucasians began asserting their influence over the Hawaiian ali'i ("nobles"), thereby lowering social standing previously enjoyed by Asian immigrants.

http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/hawaii/

Ohhh the devil(caucasions) made me do it!

It seems indeed the Hawaiians were a tad bit mean to the Asian immigrants but it was not their fault it was the caucasions that made them do it