America-Love it or...

Thieves and the Great Tyrrant God James Cook!

In the summer of 1776 Cook sailed again in the well-traveled Resolution. A new sister ship, the Discovery, and its captain, Clerke, were to look for the approach from the East. Cook made his usual stop at New Zealand and confirmed the location of his Kerguelen Island while there. From Tahiti he sailed North, discovering the Cook Islands. He discovered Christmas Island and some of the smaller Hawaiian Islands, but only stopped quickly continuing onto the northwest American coast and started charting and exploring. He eventually rounded the tip of the Alaskan Peninsula, through the Bering Strait and into the Arctic Ocean where he was met at every turn by ice. After spending as much time as possible with the ice, Cook turned southward at 70 degrees 44 minutes North to replenish and repair for the next spring. Cook named the islands they would be staying at in honor of one of his friends, John Montague, the Earl of Sandwich.

After eight weeks of seeking a suitable harbor, the Discovery and the Resolution anchored in Kealakekua Bay, on the Kona coast of the island of Hawaii. Cook seems to have been regarded as some sort of god (Lono, by the people of Kaua'i) and was accepted with a great welcome and hospitality. After a month, Cook realized the mission must continue to move onward. The ships left on February 4, 1779, in search of another anchorage before exploring the northeast coast of Asia. After sailing the stormy seas for only a week, the damaged ship was forced back into Kealakekua Bay, dragging the mast ashore on February 13.

It was here that he again was thought to be the God Lonoikamakahiki the God of Harvest, by coincidence landing during this time of celebration. When he first arrived several months before, it was Kaua'i that welcomed him as Lono, taking him to a temple or heiau and consecrating his arrival in ceremony. He was given the daughter of High Cheif Kaeo, who became pregnant and subsequently gave birth to a child.

When in Kealakekua, one of the ships long boats was stolen by lesser chiefs for the iron, it was burnt and iron taken. In addition one of two of the watchmen were killed. In order for the return of the long boat to take place, Cook devised a plan for its return. They'd land and take hostage of the Cheif and hold him until the return of the boat. Unknown to him that boat was already in ashes. Upon arrival, he did meet with the High Cheif who intially agreed to go with him to his ship, however, when near the landing the Cheif's wife came to him begging him not to go. Here is where the scuffle begins. Panic sets in, and a musket is fired and the fight is on. In this turmoil, Cook is hit and begins to bleed. (This account has been documented in Ruling Chiefs of Hawai'i by Samuel M. Kamakau, Historian via Charles K Ka'upu). There are many accounts of what happened next. Some say that Cook was bludgeoned to death once the natives realized he was not a man, others say it merely because they were tired of his domineering and inhuman rule, some say it was Cook who struck a man across the face, or maybe it was simply a misunderstanding. This still was another people's land and the language barrier did exist between the two very different cultures. What truly happened is a discussion that still goes on today betweeen those who knew Cook and his mission and the natives of Hawaii. Regardless of this debatable issue, Cook was dead and morale was now at an all time low and instead of moving onward with the mission the crew returned home in August of 1780.

http://members.tripod.com/cuculus/cookbio3.html

Human sacrifice?
Five of these adventurous Hawaiian sailors Henry Obookiah, Thomas Hopu, William Kanui, John Honolii, and George Tamoree made it to New England were they became Christians. These young men leading very exciting and adventurous lives separately all found The Lord Jesus in there own unique way. Their desire was to return to Hawaii as missionaries. They came from Hawaii were The Kapu religious system demanded human sacrifice for the breaking of a tabu. If men and women ate together, the penalty was death. If a woman ate pork or certain fish or fruits the penalty was death. If the shadow of a commoner fell on an alii or chief the penalty was death. The Hawaiian gods were hard taskmasters demanding all manner of sacrifice and offerings. The Kapu system was enforced by the alii who gave authority to high chiefs and the high chiefs gave power to their various sub-chiefs and at the bottom of the system was the common Hawaiian. All of the commoners were slaves to the chiefs and the chiefs were slaves to the alii. You owned nothing except by the graces of your superior.

The chiefs and alii were constantly fighting for power. From these warring chiefs arose Kamehameha The Great. Through intelligence, strength and some help from the English and their guns, conquered and united all of the Islands (Kauai was not conquered but did submit to Kamehameha's rule) to became their King.

In one of these battles for power between two warring chiefs, Henry Obookiah at the age of about twelve helplessly watched his parents being butchered before his eyes. Henry escaped with his infant brother, but as he was running with his brother slung over his back the child was struck with a spear and died. Henry was then forced to live with the man who killed his mother and father. After that, it appeared he would be sacrificed to a god for the other prisoner with him had just been thrown over a cliff as a sacrifice. Being alert to the peril he took a chance and escaped. Shortly after an uncle rescued him.

http://www.hawaiichristiansonline.com/miracle_page_1.html

So how many ancient religions are there in Hawaii and do they still want to practice Human sacrifice? How can they practice these ancient religions without human sacrifice?
 
Reading here they say that Hawaii was once taken over by the Tahitians in around 1000AD also which imposed the hard rule and human sacrifice and cannibalism. Before this around 500AD the first settlers arrived and it seems they were much more peaceful.
 
Have you ever been oppressed by any outside nation?

Yes, the U.N.

Have your grandparents been beaten down for speaking and practicing their mother culture?

Yes once again. The SAMMI (lapps) were suppressed, and I am sure killed sometimes. Same goes for the Native Americans. Also wasn't it the first Americans that moved from Engl;and cause of suppression. Yes we know all about suppression, war, and disease.



The Sámi people (not Lapps!)
2.3.1 Who they are
The Sámi people are one of the aboriginal peoples of the Fennoscandian area, (meaning here: Scandinavia, Finland, eastern Karelia and Kola peninsula) and for long they lived more or less disconnected from the European civilization.
They are often referred to as Lapps but they themselves prefer to be called Sámi (Saamelaiset/Samerna) because Sápmi is the name they use of themselves and their country. There is also a very old name vuowjos which has been linked to the Sámi.
The Sámi languages (there are several of them) are Finno-Ugric languages and the closest relatives to the Baltic-Finnic languages (Finnish, Estonian).
Sámi people live nowadays in an area which spreads from Jämtlands Län in Sweden through northern Norway and Finland to the Kola Peninsula in Russia.
2.3.2 Sámi history
The origins of Sámi people have been researched for long but no certain answer has yet been found. The name "Sámi" has the same origin as the names "Suomi" (Finnish name for Finland), and "Häme" (Tavastia, an area in southern Finland) and comes originally from the Baltic word "Sämä" - meaning the area north of Gulf of Finland, i.e. current Finland.
Anthropologically there are two types of Sámi people, the eastern type which resembles northern Asian peoples, and the western which is closer to Europids; blood survey, especially in this century, indicates western rather than eastern heritage.
Perhaps the Sámi identity should therefore be seen more as a nomadic hunter-gatherer way of life, rather than as anything genetic - people who adopted the Sámi way of life became Sámi.
It is believed that the original Sámi people came to areas now known as Finland and eastern Karelia during and after the last ice age, following herds of reindeer. Prehistoric (some 4000 years old) ski findings by the Arctic Sea show that there was some sort of Sámi culture living there already at that time. Some 1500 rock drawings have been found in the areas where they lived, e.g. by lake Onega and in Kola peninsula; the easternmost of them are 5000 years old.
Some archeologists have linked the oldest known Scandinavian stone age culture, the so-called Komsa culture by the Arctic Sea, to the ancestors of the Sámi. Historians now also note that Ghengis Khan wrote that the Sámi (or, Fenner as they were then called), were the one nation he would never try to fight again. The Sámi were not warriors in the conventional sense. They simply didn't believe in war and so they "disappeared" in times of conflict. The Sámi remain one culture that has never been to war but are known as "peaceful retreaters" adapting to changing living conditions, whether they were caused by nature or by other people.
Anyway, it is known that the Sámi people are the original people in the Fennoscandia area. Many names even in southern Finland and central Sweden are of Sámi origin. There was a Sámi population in those areas as late as the sixteenth century. The Sámi are known to have fished and hunted seals on the west coast of the Gulf of Bothnia, but in the late Middle Ages the Swedish agricultural population "invaded" the coastal area, pushing the Sámi further north. The same happened in Finland so that now the original Sámi people can only be found north of the Arctic Circle.

Now for the crueal and oppressive acts all have endured on the planet earth some time or another!

2.3.6 The Sámi as citizens
Before the 1600s the Sámi lived their own life more or less undisturbed. They were gradually pushed further north by new inhabitants but it happened peacefully. It is believed that the Sámi were mainly following reindeers and other wild animals which were also retreating further north.
In the 1600s, and later, there were some "colonialistic" features in the way the Sámi were treated by the kingdoms ruling over their lands. It was considered "natural" to subjugate cultures that were regarded as "undeveloped" and "primitive". At that time the government of Sweden-Finland had a political goal to have permanent agricultural settlements in the Swedish Lapland instead of sparse nomad inhabitation; it was thought that keeping the area within the state would be easier that way. This is why many Finns were also encouraged to move there. Although the same basic European colonialistic thinking was also common in Scandinavia, it has to be noted that the attitude towards the original people has never been as inhuman as it was in many colonies elsewhere in the world.
As a general observation it can be said that as the Nordic countries divided the Sámi territories between states they failed to take into account the Sámi colonies and to let them develop naturally. Instead the Sámi people were forced to adapt to the cultural system of each country.
The Swedish king Gustav Vasa declared that "all permanently uninhabited land belongs to God, Us and the Swedish crown". This declaration concerned also the territories where Sámi lived. Because of their nomad way of living they were not seen as "permanent inhabitants". Later the Sámi's right for land was stabilized as certain "family areas". In 1867 in Sweden a new administrational "cultivation border" was formed. It goes several tens of kilometers from the Norwegian border all the way from Karesuando to Jämtlands Län. All land in the Swedish territory was given to the Sámi and only Sámi people were allowed to live there without a separate permission. All activities that are done there need a permission and the money goes to "Lapland fund". The money of this fund is used for reindeering, building bridges, etc. in that area. All this is done by the state and the Sámi people have very little to say about how the money is to be used.
There have been discussions about the Sámi's right for the natural resources in their areas between the Nordic Council and the Nordic Sámi Council but so far there has been little progress in this issue.
There have been several agreements between the Nordic countries and the Sámi people but they are beyond the scope of this document.
All in all, the Nordic countries have not been indifferent about Sámi but due to lack of ethnosociological knowledge the Sámi have been treated as "children who don't know what's best for them".
Because arctic occupations favour the individual mind, and the Sámi population is sparse, their own activities as Nordic citizens have developed very slowly. Also, belonging to four different countries doesn't make it easier - on the other hand crossing borders between the Nordic countries has never been a problem. This belonging to different countries has been one factor which has increased the common sense of ethnicity among the Sámi people during this century. Only a few decades ago it was not desirable that Sámi children spoke Sámi with each other in school whereas now, in principle, it's possible to complete university degrees in Sámi language.
http://members.tripod.com/~SAMI_SIIDA/index-5.html

My Great Great Grandpa was 100% SAMMI.

The Sammi even lived in housing similar to the Native Americans. It is called a lavvu.
lavvu_baiki.jpg


lavvu (lahv-oo) n. Circular Sami tent centered with a fire pit similar to a Native American tepee. The spiritual center of the Sami universe and family.
Here is what it says about them when they came to America.
Population demographics There are about 60,000 Sami people in Sápmi: 35,000 in Norway, 17,000 in Sweden, 5,000 in Finland and 3,000 on the Russian Kola Peninsula. It is estimated that there are now also 30,000 descendants of the Sami immigrants to North America who usually hid their identity and settled in areas where Scandinavians and Finnish people settled. They sometimes referred to themselves as Black Norwegians, Brown Swedes, Flat-faced Norwegians, and Finns.

Have your people been nearly wiped out by disease and murder in less than 100 years?

Yeah. You forget about the plagues and wars that gripped Europe for the last 500 years.

14th Century Europe
About 25% of the population of Europe was killed in the 14th century. That's 25 million people--more than the total population of Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Maryland, and Delaware combined. This disease killed three times more people than died in all of World War I. Before the 1300's, the Plague had been absent from Europe for almost 1000 years. After this time, Plague epidemics occurred almost regularly for 200 years. The Plague changed people's attitudes about life, created new superstitions, and became engrained in folklore in Renaissance Europe <http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/osheim/intro.html>.
In 1348, 67% of population was afflicted. In 1361, 50% were infected; few survived. Smaller epidemics occurred from 1300 to 1600, with a great pandemic in 1663 to 1668.
http://www.ento.vt.edu/IHS/plagueHistory.html



Also on the matter of where the plagues originated from it seems here they did not start in Europe but in the India/China area.
http://www.bignell.uk.com/plagues.htm

I am sure these are the diseases of which you speak. Our immune systems adopted to live with it but we still have it. It was only a matter of time before it was introduced to Hawaii.



Have you worked for years and years to get Hawaiian language back in the public school system and make it no longer against the law to be spoken in school? (No - I'm not kidding ... in 1984 it was still illegal to speak Hawaiian in public school - though French, Spanish, and Japanese were offered).

Nope, sorry can't say that I have done that. But we are fighting to get prayer back into our schools and violence out! Prayer is a a much better language than any other in my eyes.



Making uneducated statements isn't only ignorant, it's outright stupid. That's where I place blame - feeding the uneducated fire that runs rampant throughout the general public.

So what am I supposed to call 1 million vs. 300,000 or 56,000 vs. 29,000. Your estimate of people living there was about 700,000 more than the resource I mentioned above as also the number killed from disease. That is a large difference in people there. Personally I don't see how 1 million people could live there with out very large farms and livestock like we see today.
 
MitchSchaft said:
Good luck fighting for your cause. I'll read up on it some more. All I can say is, I hope everyone that is fighting for Hawaii's liberation is a little more patient in explaining their side of the story instead of the shout-down belittlement tactic that I've witnessed here. That tactic is usually used by those who do not have their story straight. I hope you guys used that tactic because you don't care what we know. PM me if you have anymore info. I'd like to hear more from your side of the story.

Mitch, I appreciate your willingness to read up on the subject. Thank you. And I'm sorry for the "shout-down belittlement tactic", it came from your "put up or shut up comment" that rubbed me the wrong way and made me defensive. I assumed you knew of our fight with JJR, and I thought I had to defend my culture against another person who was unwilling to believe that we aren't better off because of America.
 
Mitch - I too apologize for my words - I felt you were belittling us as a people and our persons. Thank you for your well-wishing and your willingness to learn about people you don't understand.

gf and les - you guys are the greatest :)
 
ol' man, sure, believe everything you read. do you even know that the sources you are quoting aren't reliable? i have spent my life learning what I can about my culture and people, and you think by reading a few links, you have an accurate representation of the history of my people? believe what you want, you are the same type of person as JJR. And for the record, you assume that I don't know about the evils that Japan did against Korea. My best friend who I love dearly is Korean. Many of my friends are Korean. I know what happened to them. They tell me what happened, and I listen, I didn't read a few links and assume to know what happened.

And stop quoting me out of context. I was arguing with JJR about what happened to my people in my land. I am not ignorant, I do know that people everywhere were oppressed.

thank you, greenie and luis. i really do love you two for the sensitivity you have always shown us.
 
ol' man said:
So what am I supposed to call 1 million vs. 300,000 or 56,000 vs. 29,000. Your estimate of people living there was about 700,000 more than the resource I mentioned above as also the number killed from disease. That is a large difference in people there. Personally I don't see how 1 million people could live there with out very large farms and livestock like we see today.

You got your quote from biased western sources. You don't see how 1 mill people could live here without farms and livestock? We ate fish from the Pacific ocean and farmed what we needed to sustain ourselves.
 
kuulani said:
ol' man said:
So what am I supposed to call 1 million vs. 300,000 or 56,000 vs. 29,000. Your estimate of people living there was about 700,000 more than the resource I mentioned above as also the number killed from disease. That is a large difference in people there. Personally I don't see how 1 million people could live there with out very large farms and livestock like we see today.

You got your quote from biased western sources. You don't see how 1 mill people could live here without farms and livestock? We ate fish from the Pacific ocean and farmed what we needed to sustain ourselves.

Well I found a few sources, not sure if they were biased or not but they said indeed a few ROGUE people from the US did take over the Hawaiian Islands removing your monarchy but without congressional or presidential approval. The person in charg of the over through was later repriamnded and release for his conduct in Hawaii. President Cleavland was reported to have said it was a horrible act of war.

:confused: :(

Spose after WWII they felt a need to make it a state after the murder of our sailors there. If there ever was again a threat from that side of the world, Hawaii would be the first place they would hit no doubt about it whether the US are there or not. Same thing with Alaska, the Japanese took over some of the Islands of Alaska and like I said they removed the Enuit Native Americans from there only to be killed in Japan while some of them were murdered right there in Alaska. They were not even American at the time as Alaska was not even a state. I wish you would look at what would have happend if we were not a presence there in Hawaii. I seriously doubt there would be any Native Hawaiians alive any more.

Anyway I do conclude after a few more sites that indeed you should get back land. It sounds to me like alot of the greedy people simply want to make cash of of the land there instead of returning it too the Hawaiians by selling it to foreigners. But on another note I feel we should stay there as a military presence. We are a not war free world just yet.

Some of the Hawaiian women I spoke to there in Hana wished they were on the US mainland. Why I am not sure? They met me on the cruise I was on and brought me to a place where Rainbow Falls is. After that they did a dance to "Lovely hula hands" where their hands went in a SINE wave motion to the music. When I was leaving they all came running to hug me before I left:) I spent about 60 minutes with them, bought some Passion Fruit jelly and then left.

Do Native Hawaiians receive a free college education like the Native Americans do here on the mainland? They also receive something like $20,000 upon graduation from High School. They also receive free health care here. I think Native Americans also get other perks in College too like a certain amount of cash a month for expenses if they are in College. Essentially you get a free ride through school if you are Native American. I know when my wife gets her green card she will get essentially a free ride through college just cause she is Asian. I wish I could get that! I only get a partial free ride;) Being 27 and all:)
 
I don't have much time - we're (the students and staff) are getting ready for the arrival of visitors from the University, but I did want to address some of the things ol man brought up.

After what you've read, and your seeming turn around in attitude, you can see why we said we would not debate the issue unless and until you've become somewhat educated on the subject. Your researching the subject tells me a lot about your character. Thank you for taking the time.

I'm sure that many of the sites you visited were biased - to be sure ... they're either biased on the side of Americanism or on the side of Hawaiianism. There are a few that present the facts and allow you to arrive at your own opinion - I'll try to get some time together to find those and pass them on to you.

ol' man said:
Well I found a few sources, not sure if they were biased or not but they said indeed a few ROGUE people from the US did take over the Hawaiian Islands removing your monarchy but without congressional or presidential approval. The person in charg of the over through was later repriamnded and release for his conduct in Hawaii. President Cleavland was reported to have said it was a horrible act of war.

He did indeed say that ... and President Clinton issued a formal apology to the people of the Hawaiian Islands. I think ku'u posted that once before - if not, I'll look for that too ...

Spose after WWII they felt a need to make it a state after the murder of our sailors there. If there ever was again a threat from that side of the world, Hawaii would be the first place they would hit no doubt about it whether the US are there or not. Same thing with Alaska, the Japanese took over some of the Islands of Alaska and like I said they removed the Enuit Native Americans from there only to be killed in Japan while some of them were murdered right there in Alaska. They were not even American at the time as Alaska was not even a state.
There were several things that led to statehood - including the fact that some Hawaiians, by that time, felt we needed to be a part of the US. That point I won't discredit or deny.

I wish you would look at what would have happend if we were not a presence there in Hawaii. I seriously doubt there would be any Native Hawaiians alive any more.
On that point I beg to differ. The main reason for the bombing was the military presence here. And by that time, the number of Native Hawaiians was already drastically low due to the diseases spread by European and American sailors and other visitors.

Some of the Hawaiian women I spoke to there in Hana wished they were on the US mainland. Why I am not sure? They met me on the cruise I was on and brought me to a place where Rainbow Falls is. After that they did a dance to "Lovely hula hands" where their hands went in a SINE wave motion to the music. When I was leaving they all came running to hug me before I left:) I spent about 60 minutes with them, bought some Passion Fruit jelly and then left.
The cost of living in Hawai'i is very, very high. We pay roughly double what the rest of the country spends on the same items. When you're faced with making a good income or living in poverty (without a good education, what else are you left with?), many people choose moving away.

Do Native Hawaiians receive a free college education like the Native Americans do here on the mainland? They also receive something like $20,000 upon graduation from High School. They also receive free health care here. I think Native Americans also get other perks in College too like a certain amount of cash a month for expenses if they are in College. Essentially you get a free ride through school if you are Native American. I know when my wife gets her green card she will get essentially a free ride through college just cause she is Asian. I wish I could get that! I only get a partial free ride;) Being 27 and all:)
roughly, the answer to all those questions is a big fat no :D ... you can apply for a Native Hawaiian tuition waiver in schools within the UH system but it is based on financial need and they can only service so many people ( I'm not sure what the numbers are but I know there are less than 50 recipients in the UH system on this island). Local children don't receive anything from the state when they graduate - neither money nor benefits. They don't receive health care unless they're on welfare. (I went 3 years without medical benefits for me and my children because I refused to go on welfare). There are no free rides here - for anyone. How do I know? I am a full-time college student, work full-time, and a single mother of 3. Were it not for my family, I wouldn't make it. I work my way through college and through life, as does ku'u, hence our passion for things Hawaiian and the need to defend it when people who don't know better attack our way of thinking and our position on the issues.

I hope this answered at least some of your questions - ku'u may be able to give you more incite if she has time to come online today.
 
*rereading the JJR thread from greenie's link*

mitch and ol' man, that debate explains a lot about our thoughts and history. i think that debate started off well, but progressively got angrier and more hurtful. that explains our initial sarcasm in this thread, i'd say that thread got me feeling really defensive about my culture, and assumed everyone would have a "jjr attitude".

you know what, i can finally read that thread in a calm manner. i mean, his attitude still upsets me, but i'm not in that boiling rage i was in the first time around :)
 
The person who slaps your face and then gives you a lollipop is worse than the person who just slaps your face. Why? Because the person who doesn't attempt to bribe you afterwards is at least being honest.
 
Well, Yeah, but now I got something I wanted out of it. Otherwise I got slapped and didn't get anything. It's kinda like the reach-around, you know? I don't want it at all, but if I do, the least you can give me is a reach-around.
 
On that point I beg to differ. The main reason for the bombing was the military presence here. And by that time, the number of Native Hawaiians was already drastically low due to the diseases spread by European and American sailors and other visitors.

That is no doubt. They would not have had to drop bombs on Hawaii if it was just Native Hawaiians with spears and maybe a couple of Muskets. They would have simple landed with their boats, came on shore and and asked you all to surrender or be shot! They would have then most likely shot alot of you anyway and kept many of the women as sex slaves like they did every place they went in the pacific and mainland China. Then as they did with the Enuit brought many of you back to Japan to be slaves and remain in concentration camps like once again they did with the Enuit. It would seem there is not one place the Japanese went were they did not kill the men or force them to be part of their army and turn women into sex slaves.

TOO THINK THEY WOULD HAVE SIMPLY FLEW OVER HAWAII IS DOWNRIGHT UNTHINKABLE.

They would have landed there anyway. It would make a perfect base for S. Pacific operations which the US knew.

Do you honestly think Japan would not have bothered with Hawaii if the US were not there?

Also I don't like you trying to blame the US and Europeans for the diseases they brought with them. If anything that is a consequence of being a living human being on the planet. All continents went through it. Central Asia sometime before 1300, Europe in the 1300's, N. America in the 1400's. And now it appears Hawaii in the 1700's being isolated like you were.

At this point in time you really think if the Europeans or the US people had not landed there you would not have had the diseases you did?

Do you think that if Japan were the first to come there they would not have brought disease with them?

This whole "You brought disease with you" thing is what really kinda erks me a little.

BIG SHITTEN DEAL WE ALL HAD TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT TOO.
 
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