Another log for the fire

So, let's cut to the chase. You think a group of unwanted goat herders living in a region named by Rome but under the control of anybody but them has a right to attack a duly recognized & legal country but said country has no right to protect its language, borders & culture?

Israel has never made an purely offensive strike against any country. The land they aquired was taken as spoils of war from attacking countries.
 
I think both sides have goat herders and non-goat herders. I think both sides continue to retaliate for wrongs by the other. Legal? Israel has been constantly breaking mandates since it's dubious inception. Including the illegally taken land.

There is not much difference between the way either side acts. Just labels and wording. Both sides may protect their land and culture. Continued retaliation by both sides means never ending violence. They need to work this out diplomatically instead of everyone acting like children with a chip on their shoulder.

This is by no means a good vs. bad situation and oversimplifying it does nobody any favors. Back and forth they will go and I have no faith that it will be resolved.

The US should wash their hands of the situation and find better uses for the money spent there.
 
spike said:
I think both sides have goat herders and non-goat herders. I think both sides continue to retaliate for wrongs by the other. Legal? Israel has been constantly breaking mandates since it's dubious inception. Including the illegally taken land.
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Breaking what mandates? What's dubious about it's inception? WHat illegally taken land?

spike said:
There is not much difference between the way either side acts. Just labels and wording. Both sides may protect their land and culture. Continued retaliation by both sides means never ending violence. They need to work this out diplomatically instead of everyone acting like children with a chip on their shoulder.
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There is no Palestine, so how can they protect anything? Diplomats have no reason to work anything out. That means they're out of a job. They do have reason to continue talks & look for alternatives. Israel is threatened by every side. Israel shows it will not tolerate acts of violence against its people. Israel has not taken the offensive.

spike said:
This is by no means a good vs. bad situation and oversimplifying it does nobody any favors. Back and forth they will go and I have no faith that it will be resolved.
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It very much is good vs bad. A nation, accepting peoples from all lands, using established democratic principles & controlled particapatory capitalism is under seige & attack by terrorists who attack pizza parlors, nightclubs, busses & use ambulances as cover in order to kill & maim as many civilians as possible. EVERY time Israel shows weakness (perceived by the Arabs) & allows peaceful transitions, the terrorists do not stop. They intensify their actions until Israel is forced to retaliate.

spike said:
The US should wash their hands of the situation and find better uses for the money spent there.
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Stopping terrorism is a key to a peaceful future.
 
A quick search on "Israel UN resolutins" gave me info like "The U.N. has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other nations combined, including Iraq."

1955-1992:
* Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
* Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
* Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
* Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
* Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
* Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
* Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
* Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
* Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
* Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
* Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
* Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
* Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
* Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
* Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
*Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
* Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
* Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
* Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
* Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
* Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
* Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
* Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
* Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
* Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
* Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious
obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
* Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
* Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
* Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
* Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
* Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the
council's order not to deport Palestinians".
* Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide
by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
* Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
* Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
* Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported
Palestinian mayors".
* Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
nuclear facility".
* Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
* Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
* Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
* Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
* Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
allow food supplies to be brought in".
* Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
* Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
* Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
* Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
in attack on PLO headquarters.
* Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
* Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students
at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
* Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
denying the human rights of Palestinians.
* Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
* Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
* Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
* Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United
Nations.
* Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
Palestinians.
* Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
* Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
* Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians
and calls for their immediate return.

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html
 
"There is no Palestine, so how can they protect anything?"

People live there, own land, and want to protect it. You're very caught up in this wording. I am not going to debate whether or not there is a Palestine. If it is not an official country does not mean it's a free for all on the people that live there. So it does not matter either way.

"At the Brussels' Palace of Justice on March 6, 2002, Souad Srour El Meri, one of 28 Palestinians filing war crimes charges against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the 1982 massacre of Sabra-Shatila, shows a photo of Arab children killed by Sharon's proxies. A Brussels appeals' court is considering putting Sharon on trial for war crimes he perpetrated in Lebanon.

The International Laws of Belligerent Occupation

Belligerent occupation is governed by The Hague Regulations of 1907, as well as by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, and the customary laws of belligerent occupation. Security Council Resolution 1322 (2000), paragraph 3 continued: "Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in a Time of War of 12 August 1949;..." Again, the Security Council vote was 14 to 0, becoming obligatory international law.

The Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the West Bank, to the Gaza Strip, and to the entire City of Jerusalem, in order to protect the Palestinians living there. The Palestinian People living in this Palestinian Land are "protected persons" within the meaning of the Fourth Geneva Convention. All of their rights are sacred under international law.

There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes.

So this is not a symmetrical situation. As matters of fact and of law, the gross and repeated violations of Palestinian rights by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers living illegally in occupied Palestine constitute war crimes. Conversely, the Palestinian people are defending themselves and their land and their homes against Israeli war crimes and Israeli war criminals, both military and civilian."

theres more including:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine50.html

The U.N. Human Rights Commission

Israel's War Crimes against Palestinians

The Precursor to Genocide


You're oversimplifying the situation and trying to label one side as good and the other as bad when there's so much more to the story.

You want to keep labeling the palestinians as terrorists even though Israel has caused just as much terror if not more. Just because Israel can use airplanes to kill does not make it any lss wrong.
 
United Nations. The same organization that allowed Iraq to have rape rooms. The same organization that allows Iran to develop nukes & says, quite earnestly, STOP!!! or we'll tell you to stop again. The same organization that stops criminial investigators from doing their job in the UN. The same organization that allows blue helmets to run brothels.

They are a paper tiger ans, worse, a beauracracy.

Israel is in the right. Palestine does not exist. Terrorism is real & if you refuse to see it because it hurts your sensibilities, :shrug:
 
Gonz said:
United Nations. The same organization that allowed Iraq to have rape rooms. The same organization that allows Iran to develop nukes & says, quite earnestly, STOP!!! or we'll tell you to stop again. The same organization that stops criminial investigators from doing their job in the UN. The same organization that allows blue helmets to run brothels.

They are a paper tiger ans, worse, a beauracracy.

Israel is in the right. Palestine does not exist. Terrorism is real & if you refuse to see it because it hurts your sensibilities, :shrug:
Click to expand...

Sure, they "allowed" the rape rooms. What's the number of that resolution and the one that allows Iran to develope nukes?

You said Israel does everything legally and as you can see they haven't. "Palestine doesn't exist" means nothing. Terrorism is real and israel causes it's fair share of terror.

Ignoring the facts to blindy support one side is not the way to handle this.
 
2minkey said:
and your oversimplifed view of the world.... nah, fuck it.
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Continue, please.

spike said:
Ignoring the facts to blindy support one side is not the way to handle this.
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That would be you ignoring the facts.

Name the date of Palestines inception.
Name one Palestinian diplomat.
Name one time Israelis used explosives to intentionally destroy a public bus.

The Palestinians are nothing but an unwanted group of Arab desert wanderers who are a convenient tool for those in power. Arabs live peacefully in Israel. The same cannot be said by any other state in the region about Jews. The Palestinains are puppets & would be disposed of, in an traditional Arab way, upon the departure of the last Israelite, who btw, have historiucally been dated to that specific area for over 5000 years.
 
Instead of giving all this money to Israel the US should put the money into researching cures for heart disease and cancer.

Heart disease kills like 700,000 people in the US a year.
 
The US Constitution does not specify R&D. It does specify military funding & it does specify treaties.

Two things...name one thing a federally funded lab ever created or cured and if you want, donate your money.
 
Gonz said:
That would be you ignoring the facts.

Name the date of Palestines inception.
Name one Palestinian diplomat.
Name one time Israelis used explosives to intentionally destroy a public bus.

The Palestinians are nothing but an unwanted group of Arab desert wanderers who are a convenient tool for those in power. Arabs live peacefully in Israel. The same cannot be said by any other state in the region about Jews. The Palestinains are puppets & would be disposed of, in an traditional Arab way, upon the departure of the last Israelite, who btw, have historiucally been dated to that specific area for over 5000 years.
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What facts am I ignoring? I've seen you blithely ignore the fact that he U.N. has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other nations combined. Yet you say their actions are Legal somehow. How are you defining legal?

1. Date of Palestines inception means what? I'll ignore this until it has relevance.
2. Afif Safieh, not sure why this matters either.
3. The means of killing matters not. Name one time Palestinians used an air strike to kill civilians.

Broad generalizations don't serve anything. Arabs live Israel as second class citizens. Most Jews came to the region less than 100 years ago.

The wrongs committed by Israel should not be ignored in order to simplify this to a good vs. bad situation when it is so obviously not.
 
Gonz said:
The US Constitution does not specify R&D. It does specify military funding & it does specify treaties.

Two things...name one thing a federally funded lab ever created or cured and if you want, donate your money.
Click to expand...

The constitution does not secify funding Israel either. The people who wrote it had isolationist ideals in fact. Since heart disease and cancer are the top two killers of Americans it just seems like the most benefit could be made to American lives.
 
spike said:
What facts am I ignoring?
1. Date of Palestines inception means what? I'll ignore this until it has relevance.
Click to expand...
There's your answer.

Spike said:
3. The means of killing matters not. Name one time Palestinians used an air strike to kill civilians.
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The manner & target matters completely. Stop being an apologists for terrorists. You seem to be sayng that Israel has no authority nor reason to protect its citizens. Hamas is a terrorist organization. There is no government mandate for Palestine thus they aren't protecting their citizens. They are allowing terrorists to have free rein.
 
Yeah, it says nothing about needing to fund Israel. Addressing the leading causes of death is a much better way to spend the money.
 
TREATIES are specifically mandated by the Constitution.

R&D is not a government mandate. Nor should it be. Allow private organizations to do private matters & keep government out of matters that don't concern them.
 
We can have treaties. It does not say we are required to send massive funding to Israel for decades. Big difference.

It would be in the best interest of the citizens of the US if that money was spent protecting and improving US citizens lives. Addressing the leading causes their death I thought might be a good place to start.
 
Gonz said:
There's your answer.


The manner & target matters completely. Stop being an apologists for terrorists. You seem to be sayng that Israel has no authority nor reason to protect its citizens. Hamas is a terrorist organization. There is no government mandate for Palestine thus they aren't protecting their citizens. They are allowing terrorists to have free rein.
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My answer is no answer? It must not have any relevance then.

Killing civilians is killing civilians. I am not apologizing for the terrorists on either side. israelites can protect themselves and palestinians can protect themselves. Both sides cause terror, although israel kills more civilians.

You seem to be ignoring my questions on the definition of "legal".
 
spike said:
It would be in the best interest of the citizens of the US if that money was spent protecting and improving US citizens lives.
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It is.
 
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