Another log for the fire

spike said:
Yet you say their actions are Legal somehow. How are you defining legal?

A nation has a right and an obligation to defend itself & its citizens from attack, whether that is rebellion, insurrection or outside aggitators.
 
Gonz said:
It is.

A nation has a right and an obligation to defend itself & its citizens from attack, whether that is rebellion, insurrection or outside aggitators.

Spending massive amounts of money fundig israel is not improving the american taxpayers lives. Sure israel can defend itself and so can palestinians. When you say "legal" what set of laws are you referring to?
 
Are you suggesting that we. the American people via the US government, step blindly aside, reject all our treaties, dismiss humanity & watch as the Arabs destroy the only sucessful bastion of modern democratic politics in the entire middleeast, finishing the job that Hitler started in 1936?

I'm referring to the law of survival. It is, in effect, supported by your beloved UN *the same UN that poo-poohs Israel for self-preservation yet does nothing to stop Palestinians from attacking (wait-there is no Palestine member state at the UN)
 
Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
 
That's just beautiful. You're using the UN to justify the legality of israel's actions and at the same time ignoring the fact that israel breaks more UN mandates than anyone other country.

Can't have it both ways.
 
spike said:
That's just beautiful. You're using the UN to justify the legality of israel's actions and at the same time ignoring the fact that israel breaks more UN mandates than anyone other country.

Can't have it both ways.
Sure he can. The UN does all the time.
 
Gonz said:
Are you suggesting that we. the American people via the US government, step blindly aside, reject all our treaties, dismiss humanity & watch as the Arabs destroy the only sucessful bastion of modern democratic politics in the entire middleeast, finishing the job that Hitler started in 1936?

Well?

spike said:
That's just beautiful. You're using the UN to justify the legality of israel's actions and at the same time ignoring the fact that israel breaks more UN mandates than anyone other country.

Can't have it both ways.
Just using a source in which you seem to be fond.
 
Gonz said:
Are you suggesting that we. the American people via the US government, step blindly aside, reject all our treaties, dismiss humanity & watch as the Arabs destroy the only sucessful bastion of modern democratic politics in the entire middleeast, finishing the job that Hitler started in 1936?

I am suggesting the US government quit funding one of the most law breaking, treaty ignoring nations in existence and spend that money improving the lives of US taxpayers.

When other nations break internationall law the US imposes sanctions and other measures to get them to comply. Giving massive funding to the worst offender makes no sense. If they start complying with all laws maybe funding could be reconsidered but until then we should not be encouraging criminal behavior.
 
spike said:
one of the most law breaking, treaty ignoring nations in existence and spend that money improving the lives of US taxpayers.

What laws & treaties has Israel broken?

You need a civics class. You're poorly informed on US History & the limitations placed upon the government.
 
Gonz said:


No that source considers their actions as specifically illegal.
http://www.otcentral.com/forum/showpost.php?p=515588&postcount=44

So do you have one that sees their actions as legal?

"There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes."
 
spike said:

"There are 149 substantive articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protect the rights of every one of these Palestinians living in occupied Palestine. The Israeli Government is currently violating, and has since 1967 been violating, almost each and every one of these sacred rights of the Palestinian People recognized by the Fourth Geneva Convention. Indeed, violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes."

source?

condemnation...nice justice system, or is it a PC move for appeasel?
 
Sabra-Shatila

the massarce where a group of the Lebanese christian militia of the Falange killed a bunch of people? as for the charges that israeli soldiers watched? I think it is BS, charges made up by people who invented the jenin massacre
 
Gonz said:
source?

condemnation...nice justice system, or is it a PC move for appeasel?

Source
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5936.htm

There's more

"The U.N. Human Rights Commission
Indeed, it is far more serious than that. On 19 October 2000 a Special Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a Resolution set forth in U.N. Document E/CN.4/S-5/L.2/Rev. 1, “Condemning the provocative visit to al Aqsa Haram Sharif on 28 September 2000 by Ariel Sharon, the Likud party leader, which triggered the tragic events that followed in occupied East Jerusalem and the other occupied Palestinian territories, resulting in a high number of deaths and injuries among Palestinian civilians.” The U.N. Human Rights Commission then said it was “[g]ravely concerned” about several different types of atrocities inflicted by Israel upon the Palestinian People, which it denominated “war crimes, flagrant violations of international humanitarian law and crimes against humanity.”

In operative paragraph 1 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission then: “Strongly condemns the disproportionate and indiscriminate use of force in violation of international humanitarian law by the Israeli occupying Power against innocent and unarmed Palestinian civilians...including many children, in the occupied territories, which constitutes a war crime and a crime against humanity;...” And in paragraph 5 of its 19 October 2000 Resolution, the U.N. Human Rights Commission: “Also affirms that the deliberate and systematic killing of civilians and children by the Israeli occupying authorities constitutes a flagrant and grave violation of the right to life and also constitutes a crime against humanity;...” Article 68 of the United Nations Charter had expressly required the U.N.’s Economic and Social Council to “set up” this Commission “for the promotion of human rights.”
 
spike said:
Killing civilians is killing civilians. I am not apologizing for the terrorists on either side. israelites can protect themselves and palestinians can protect themselves. Both sides cause terror, although israel kills more civilians.

You seem to be ignoring my questions on the definition of "legal".

You seem to be ignoring common sense. According to your argument, a person who intentionally drives a car into a crowd is no more guilty than the person who has a brake failure and runs into a crowd. You have no clue as to what you're talking about, do you?
 
yeah you really don't have one.

what point were you trying to make? that your notion of "common sense" should be the arbiter of when killing is okay or not?
 
Blindly walking up to a stranger & without provacation or reason killing that person is always bad.

Retaliating for previous or current attacks is seldomly bad. Especially whne those attacks never end.

The diplomats want to tell us that the peace is broken. What peace? There have been intermittent times of lesser violence but, in the end, one of the Arab nations (or their Persian cousins) always attacks the Jews. They just needed to re-arm.
 
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