Fallujah

Gato_Solo said:
1. None of us is there, so all we can do is throw darts at each other until the facts are in.

2. The press has, so far, seemed to miss a fair amount of 'good news' in favor of 'bad news'.

3. For Bish in particular...don't post the Geneva Convention, and only highlight your point. Even I know better than that. ;)
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1. If they ever do come in.
2. If it bleeds, it leads. Violence plays better than drop-offs of food and nails/wood for reconstruction. :shrug:
3. If I do something simple like just posting part of my point...I'm going to get jumped on. I'd prefer to post a wee bit more and highlight the most relevant bits. Unless, you want me to post the Whole Geneva Convention...let people sludge through that and eventually get my point :D

My point being... hospitals aren't targets unless they make themselves targets...by shooting out the windows or something. In that case... try to minimize collateral damages... an air-strike is NOT a way to minimize collateral damages.
 
MrBishop said:
My point being... hospitals aren't targets unless they make themselves targets...by shooting out the windows or something. In that case... try to minimize collateral damages... an air-strike is NOT a way to minimize collateral damages.
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Nope. But it is a way to stop the enemy shooters. The US LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict) is fairly certain to play a part in this...It mentions proportionality quite clearly. If all they were taking was small arms, then an airstrike is not called for. If there were mortars and RPG's, that is a different story.
 
Geez, these people are cutting peoples heads off, and you want to bring in the"Geneva Convention"?

edit: let me clarify....
I think the Geneva Convention, should only come into play, if the other side
is also observing it.
 
catocom said:
Geez, these people are cutting peoples heads off, and you want to bring in the"Geneva Convention"?

edit: let me clarify....
I think the Geneva Convention, should only come into play, if the other side
is also observing it.
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Well, we are supposed to be better than them but on the other hand it's hard to argue with your logic.

I think Gato has hit it on the head re the bombing of the clinic though. Not being there, you have to assume the response was appropriate unless proven otherwise. You can expect the international press in general to always how the US in the worst possible light so I always try to wait for the facts (when I can figure out what they are).
 
when I originally asked, I hadn't found the article to be swayed one way or another...the question just came to mind as I read it, cause I didn't know.
 
Leslie said:
that's what they said last time they took Fallujah.
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Last time, they were stopped by 'Higher Headquarters'...I don't think that's going to happen this time...(fingers crossed)
 
catocom said:
Geez, these people are cutting peoples heads off, and you want to bring in the"Geneva Convention"?

edit: let me clarify....
I think the Geneva Convention, should only come into play, if the other side
is also observing it.
Click to expand...


If the allied forces step down from the moral highground and toss aside the Geneva convention and any other rules of war...what keeps them 'the good guys' in this coflict? Why not toss all of the rules and morals aside and just go back to raping and pillaging...it's more fun. :evilcool:

The Doctors and Nurses working in this clinic didn't break the Geneva Convention. Neither did the wounded ( most of them civis) being treated.
 
NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - Iraqi troops have found "hostage slaughterhouses" in Fallujah where foreign captives were held and killed, the commander of Iraqi forces in the city said Wednesday.

Troops found CDs and records of people taken captive in houses in the northern part of Fallujah, Maj. Gen. Abdul Qader Mohammed Jassem Mohan told reporters.


"We have found hostage slaughterhouses in Fallujah that were used by these people and the black clothing that they used to wear to identify themselves, hundreds of CDs and whole records with names of hostages," the general said at a military camp near Fallujah.


He was unsure if the hostage records included the names of any of the at least nine foreigners still in the hands of kidnappers — most notably, British aid worker Margaret Hassan, French journalists Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot and an unidentified American worker for a Saudi company.
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Source
 
MrBishop said:
If the allied forces step down from the moral highground and toss aside the Geneva convention and any other rules of war...what keeps them 'the good guys' in this coflict? Why not toss all of the rules and morals aside and just go back to raping and pillaging...it's more fun. :evilcool:

The Doctors and Nurses working in this clinic didn't break the Geneva Convention. Neither did the wounded ( most of them civis) being treated.
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And the US didn't put enemy forces in the hospital. The enemy does that because we have a history of leaving them alone when they shoot from hospitals and mosques. They already broke international law by doing so. Hate to be blunt, but, in war, innocents get killed. It's not 'right', it's not planned (at least on our side of the fence), and it's not pretty, but it happens. I still don't understand how you think using a hospital as a military base to shoot at people should give them protected status under the Geneva Convention. :confused:
 
Gato_Solo said:
And the US didn't put enemy forces in the hospital. The enemy does that because we have a history of leaving them alone when they shoot from hospitals and mosques. They already broke international law by doing so. Hate to be blunt, but, in war, innocents get killed. It's not 'right', it's not planned (at least on our side of the fence), and it's not pretty, but it happens. I still don't understand how you think using a hospital as a military base to shoot at people should give them protected status under the Geneva Convention. :confused:
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It wouldn't.

We don't know if shots came from the building or not. If the place drew its own fire...so be it. That part's covered under the convention.

If the place got bombed because these kinds of places have a history and a 'better safe than sorry' attitude came about... that's not so accepteable. Innocent until proven guilty.

With that kind of thinking..might as well bomb every Mosque and hospital in Iraq...just in case.
 
MrBishop said:
We don't know if shots came from the building or not. If the place drew its own fire...so be it.
If the place got bombed because these kinds of places have a history and a 'better safe than sorry' attitude came about... that's not so accepteable.

With that kind of thinking..might as well bomb every Mosque and hospital in Iraq...just in case.
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Then why the conclusion you made that we are no longer 'on the moral high ground', and that we 'threw away the Geneva Convention'. Can't have it both ways, Bish...
 
Gato_Solo said:
Then why the conclusion you made that we are no longer 'on the moral high ground', and that we 'threw away the Geneva Convention'. Can't have it both ways, Bish...
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I was respondint to Cat who said "Geez, these people are cutting peoples heads off, and you want to bring in the"Geneva Convention"? " & "I think the Geneva Convention, should only come into play, if the other side
is also observing it."

Yes...some of the insurgents are cutting off heads. What I'm saying is that if you say "Well...they're not following the Geneva Convention..so why should we?" you're giving up the moral highround.

You're supposed to follow the GC and other Rules of War despite what your enemy is doing.
 
MrBishop said:
I was respondint to Cat who said "Geez, these people are cutting peoples heads off, and you want to bring in the"Geneva Convention"? " & "I think the Geneva Convention, should only come into play, if the other side
is also observing it."

Yes...some of the insurgents are cutting off heads. What I'm saying is that if you say "Well...they're not following the Geneva Convention..so why should we?" you're giving up the moral highround.

You're supposed to follow the GC and other Rules of War despite what your enemy is doing.
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Ah...:blush:...my bad.
 
The problem Mr. B is, it doesn't matter how we go about it.
Most of the ME peoples still will think they have the higher moral ground, and maybe
Muslims in other countries, so what does it really accomplish anymore, except
to get more of our people killed.???

No I'm not better when it comes to this type of war. (on terror)
I say piss on the convention. Go for the "Eye for an eye" approach.
 
Bish said:
Neither did the wounded ( most of them civis) being treated.
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Most of them civs? Who says? For that matter, who verified that we actually hit a medical clinic? Claims, in the middle of a battle, need to treated with skepticism, not as gospel.

Remember who the enemy is
NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - Iraqi troops have found "hostage slaughterhouses" in Fallujah where foreign captives were held and killed, the commander of Iraqi forces in the city said Wednesday.
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AP
 
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