from a Muslims POV

[Gonz]

Where?, Where does it call for killing witches?

exodus....thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,

 

[Gonz]

And not all would be in newspapers.

Au contraire my freakish friend. News of such would scream in bold headlines from newspapers from coast to coast.

 

[Leslie]

This has nothing to do with anything, it's just a handy dandy subject changer

I just accidentally acquired a vid of a public um...de-penising. He'd been convicted of rape.

How's that for an eye for an eye?

 

[catocom]

exodus....thou shalt not suffer a witch to live,

That was before Christ.
The laws changed some After Christ was crucified. (in the babtist belief)

 

[freako104]

Au contraire my freakish friend. News of such would scream in bold headlines from newspapers from coast to coast.

Odd. There were some that didnt make it to the news. Most did. Not all. Though you have a point in the infamous "If it bleeds it leads" idea

 

[Oz]

That was before Christ.
The laws changed some After Christ was crucified. (in the babtist belief)

It was It did, the New Testament pretty much dismisses pagan religions as mere superstition.......life would have been a lot sweeter for millions of people if that line of thought had prevailed.

I've read a lot of accounts to Exodus:22 translations......everything from "witch" coming from the hebrew word chasaph which means poisoner (a popular method of assasination in those times) to Khaspa(h) which means whispering one, a medium, one who talks to the dead.

Then, of course, there are earlier translations of the bible wich say thou shall not allow a sorceress to live. And of course the whole Saul and The Witch of Endor in the Bible. There is a big argument that King James had a large problem with witches, hence the translations....personnally, I dunno

What I do know is that the Bible deals a lot more with Necromancy, mediums, basically more to people who [supposedly] had the means to communicate/influence the dead ......... something witchcraft, as we know it, has very little or nothing to do with

But then, the hebrew religion is fantastically intollerant....if you read two verses down from the one we are currently concentrating on you'll find:

22:20
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Not a human sacrifice, not even animal.......any sacrifice...right down to popping a brass button in a collection plate.

But then, there is plenty of argument that this commandment has been more than taken out of context, and followed to the letter

 

[freako104]

you also have to remember too what stories were and werent canonised.

 

[Oz]

you also have to remember too what stories were and werent canonised.

Of course......there are just so many variations/additions/ommisions/interpretations....it makes the mind boggle trying to come to your own [my own] conclusions

Sometimes it seems there are as many different sects/subsects to the same religion as there are actual verses in the book.

 

[RDX]

"Plus many Christians in current day have killed abortion doctors and blown up abortion clincs not caring who if anyone was in it. "

OK, since 1989 there have been 24 murders or attemped murders from antiabortionists. Of those, only 1 has occured in the last 5 years. For the sake of the arguement, let's assume that everyone of these murder/ attemped murders were from practicing Christians. How often does a murder (let's not even consider attemped murders right now) occur by a Islamic fanatic or by an organization with an Islamic base? For 24 murders, usually less than a month.

It is very plain to me why Islam is viewed by many as a violent religion. It may not be violent at its core, but many people are using it to promote violence.

For Islam to change, it must be done internally. In the same manner that Christianity was transformed at the end of the middle ages from within, so must Islam. True followers of Islam must not just disagree with these Islamic extremists, they must condenm them. But not just in thought, they must confront the violent Islamic groups. There has to be a change or a massive separation.

That is a great concern that I have about the current state of Islam. True, the vast majority of Muslims to not agree with these murders and would not even think about doing these things themselves. But the problem lies in the fact that most Muslims do not see the need to act. They acknowledge that there is a problem, but nothing is really done. For this all to eventually end, there must not be just a lack of support from mainstream Muslims but a strong voice from the Muslim community denouncing these violent acts done in the name of Islam.

 

[The Other One]

I don't know why I'm bothering, but.... Did you ever look up exactly what jihad means? Jihad is not necessarily equated with holy wars, and can refer to one's inner struggle with spirituality.

I don't think bin Laden was thinking "inner struggle with spirituality" when he wrote his "Letter to the American People" quoted above and here, from 11-24-02:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, "Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6537.htm

Do you think bin Laden was thinking: "I've been having an inner struggle with spirituality, and America is on my shit list."
Please detail how you believe Americans deserved the 9-11 attacks. I believe you do, don't you? Keep in mind that simply because you're a lib doesn't mean you're not on the infidel list:

Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”

Bukhari:V1B2N25 “Allah’s Apostle was asked, ‘What is the best deed?’ He replied, ‘To believe in Allah and His Apostle Muhammad.’ The questioner then asked, ‘What is the next best in goodness?’ He replied, ‘To participate in Jihad, religious fighting in Allah's Cause.’”

Qur’an 33:22 “Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle.”

Qur’an 47:4 “So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”

Muslim:C40B20N4676 “Jihad Is Compulsory.”

Bukhari:V4B52N182-4 “Allah’s Apostle invoked evil upon the infidels, saying, ‘O Allah! The revealer of the Holy Book, defeat these people and shake them. Fill the infidels’ houses and graves with fire.’”

Muslim:C29B20N4636 “The Messenger of Allah was asked: ‘What deed could be equivalent to Jihad in the Cause of Allah? He answered: ‘You do not have the strength to do that deed.’ The question was repeated twice or thrice. Every time he answered: ‘You do not have the strength to do it.’ When the question was asked for the third time, he said: ‘One who goes out for Jihad is like a person who keeps fasts and stands in prayer forever, never exhibiting any weariness until the Mujihid returns from Jihad.’”

Seventh century or 21st century--it's all the same to them.

If you look at it as an "inner struggle with spirituality" you're going to lose your way of life, if not your very life. If that sounds dramatic, it is and it should be. The meek won't inherit the earth. They will have their throats cut or bend to the will of Allah.

 

[The Other One]

umm yea.


ok here is what I learned


Muhhamed himself was the prophet. He had followers. One was an assassin. The ones who followed this man are the extremists who are killing.


There was one who followed Muhhamed and was peaceful. The assassin killed him. The ones who follow him are less violent and they are at war with the followers of the assassin.


Most tho follow Muhhamed himself and his beliefs.

Here's an opposing view:

There is but one Islam, a singular correct view of Muhammad, his religion, and his god. It is the one found in the Qur'an and Hadith. There is no independent record of Muhammad in history from which a variant view may be drawn. The Hadith and Qur'an are the sole repository of information on this man, his times, means, and mission. The Muhammad of Islam, the god of Islam, and the religion of Islam must be as these sources present them. Prophet of Doom is dedicated to exposing Islam's scriptures and what Muhammad had to say about himself, his ambition, religion, and god.

Islam rises and falls on Muhammad. He is the doctrine's sole prophet, its lone founder, its god's singular conduit. Yet the picture the Islamic scriptures paint is not flattering. I analyzed the five most holy Islamic books and spent two years studying Muhammad and his message. What I found was bone chilling. The depiction of the prophet by the most revered Muslim sources is horrendous. Nearly every page reveals behavior that is immoral, criminal, and violent. The five oldest and most trusted Islamic sources don't portray Muhammad as a great and godly man. They reveal that he was a thief, liar, assassin, mass murderer, terrorist, warmonger, and an unrestrained sexual pervert engaged in pedophilia, incest, and rape. He authorized deception, assassinations, torture, slavery, and genocide. He was a pirate, not a prophet. According to the Hadith and the Qur'an, Muhammad and his henchmen plundered their way to power and prosperity. And by putting the Qur'an in chronological order and correlating it with the context of Muhammad's life as it was reported in the Sira, Sunnah and Hadith, we also find that Allah mirrored his prophet's character. Muhammad's god condoned immoral and criminal behavior. Allah boasts about being a terrorist. He claims to have deceived men, to have stolen their property, to have enslaved women and children, to having committed acts of murder, genocide, and sadistic tortures.

Islam has been at war with everyone, including itself, for 1400 years. In Prophet Of Doom you'll see why Muslims celebrate their "victories," no matter how many innocents perish. You'll learn why their state-controlled media promotes terror. You'll know why their state-controlled schools teach hate. It will become evident why imams encourage martyrdom and jihad. You will discover Islam's goals and read what it has to say about itself. You will see how violent conquest, racist genocide, and the spoils of war established the doctrine and turned a failed prophet into a world-renowned profiteer. I recognize that these words are incompatible with the prevailing notions of our politicians, religious leaders, and media. Yet the evidence is unambiguous and ubiquitous. The truth is undeniable: today's terrorists haven't corrupted their religion. Islam has corrupted them. They are following their prophet's example.

The story that unfolds in the scriptures of Muhammad, Allah, and Islam shows them as they really are. It starts out foolish, turns hateful, then punitive, violent, and repulsive. Muhammad's first Qur'anic revelations are demonic, fixated on disgusting depictions of hell, pain, punishment and "entertainment." And that's the good part. The moment Muhammad and his gang slither out of Mecca, they pick up the sword and never put it down. What you are going to read from the Islamic scriptures will shake you to your core-you will be revolted and terrified-especially if you're a Muslim.--Craig Winn, author of Prophet Of Doom

 

[freako104]

and what are his credentials on it? I saw the site and it seemed to be another anti Islam site. Then again its not unusual that you would use anti Islamic sites and people who also hate Islam.

 

[Gonz]

people who also hate Islam

Finally, the core. Because some people see a different side of an issue they necessarily hate the principle? I will stick with my 99.9% statement. What reason is there to hate these people? Why should the denigration of their religion not cause me to stick up for it? I do that for Christianity & Judaism. Islam is just one more peg in an Abraham tree.

What is the difference? As I've already stated....silence is the enemy. Until the majority of Muslims publically & continually denounce the few radical fundamentalists they will be & should be lumped together. Your friend made you do the dirty work. He's one more in a long line of silent accessories to murder.

 

[freako104]

umm no but constantly accusing it of being violent and hateful does. Hell I am not Muslim so I disagree with it dont I? I chose to do "the dirty work". And he is far from being in a line of murderers. Unless you want to count everyone since we are all human and humans are the ones who murder.

 

[Gato_Solo]

umm no but constantly accusing it of being violent and hateful does. Hell I am not Muslim so I disagree with it dont I? I chose to do "the dirty work". And he is far from being in a line of murderers. Unless you want to count everyone since we are all human and humans are the ones who murder.

The only thing that will bring Islam into peace is Islamics denouncing their own extremists. You and your friend know this. As I've stated before, 99.9% of Muslims are peace-loving people. They just don't stand up to the .1% that does the damage... Religious teachings don't matter if you don't condemn those who are against them...especially if they claim to hold the same beliefs as you do.

 

[freako104]

then ALL religions need to. But sadly they dont. There are Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists in India killing each other. they did as you typed your last message. They are doing it now. But the majority dont say much. Same to Christians. There are extremists who as I said have bombed abortion clincs adn the like. They arent really stood up to by the majority. So why should Islam be any different?

 

[catocom]

Same to Christians. There are extremists who as I said have bombed abortion clincs adn the like. They arent really stood up to by the majority. So why should Islam be any different?

They aren't? Why are they in prison now then?

 

[MrBishop]

They aren't? Why are they in prison now then?

Because there's a difference between breaking the law and getting caught and arrested for it...and having their actions denounced from the pulpit.

Muslim terrorists are being hunted down and arrested in Muslim countries by Muslim police for terrorism.

 

[HomeLAN]

I've heard loud and common denunciations of the murders of abortion doctors in christian press, from christians of my acquaintance, in the media, and from the pulpit.

Can't say the same too much from the muslim community. I do remember quite vividly, though, the scenes of streets in the Arab world on 9/11. Massive celebrations. Do you remember that?

 

[MrBishop]

I've heard loud and common denunciations of the murders of abortion doctors in christian press, from christians of my acquaintance, in the media, and from the pulpit.

Can't say the same too much from the muslim community. I do remember quite vividly, though, the scenes of streets in the Arab world on 9/11. Massive celebrations. Do you remember that?

Yes, as a matter of fact..I do.

D'you remember these?