Helpless women?

[Gonz]

No, I'm sorry. If I'm a scout leader, there's no way I'm taking a mixed group of teenage boys and girls out into the woods on a camping trip. That's just asking for trouble. Both groups should have access to the same types of activities, but they need to be able to do them without the complications that arise from having a mixed gender group.

Listen you overprotective, chauvenistic, back-woods minded has been. These are different times & kids are gonna do those things anyway so you might as well be there to teach them. Maybe if you're lucky you can participate.

That's what they keep telling me anyway.

 

[Gato_Solo]

This thread just shows the dichotomy of the women's movement. On one hand, they wish to be treated as equals, and on the other hand, they wish to be treated differently. You can't have it both ways. As for the 'helpless' part, I don't see it. Then again, I don't believe in helping anyone unless A. they ask, or B. The look as if they really need help.

 

[Aunty Em]

I've been reading this thread with interest. I have been bashing my head against this gender issue all my life and it really frustrates me that these outmoded attitudes change so slowly.

I don't want to and have never wanted be treated any differently to anyone else, I just want the same opportunities given to me regardless of my gender. I do not expect people to hold doors open for me just because I'm female but through common courtously, as I do for them, regardless of whether they are male or female. Admittedly I often get looks of surprise especially from the men, but why?

30 years ago when I left school I was given 2 career choices if you can call it that - secretary or nurse - no mention of going on to college, after all I was just going to go and get married and have kids wasn't I?

Thankfully that situation has changed to some extent, but girls are still being steered into what are seen as "female" careers and boys are still encouraged to look elsewhere. To me this is wrong - you should be encouraged and helped to do what you are best at. Your life choices should not limited by your gender.

Unfortunately there is little control over the outmoded attitudes that parents pass on to their children, but from discussions with teenagers I'm pleased to say that many of their ideas are quite different to their parents and hopefully in a couple of generations time, when all the dinosaurs have died off, we may indeed have a more equal and forward looking society where ability is prized over gender and segregation no longer exists.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I've been reading this thread with interest. I have been bashing my head against this gender issue all my life and it really frustrates me that these outmoded attitudes change so slowly.

I don't want to and have never wanted be treated any differently to anyone else, I just want the same opportunities given to me regardless of my gender. I do not expect people to hold doors open for me just because I'm female but through common courtously, as I do for them, regardless of whether they are male or female. Admittedly I often get looks of surprise especially from the men, but why?

30 years ago when I left school I was given 2 career choices if you can call it that - secretary or nurse - no mention of going on to college, after all I was just going to go and get married and have kids wasn't I?

Thankfully that situation has changed to some extent, but girls are still being steered into what are seen as "female" careers and boys are still encouraged to look elsewhere. To me this is wrong - you should be encouraged and helped to do what you are best at. Your life choices should not limited by your gender.

Unfortunately there is little control over the outmoded attitudes that parents pass on to their children, but from discussions with teenagers I'm pleased to say that many of their ideas are quite different to their parents and hopefully in a couple of generations time, when all the dinosaurs have died off, we may indeed have a more equal and forward looking society where ability is prized over gender and segregation no longer exists.

Unfortunately, Aunty Em, your attitude is not in the majority. You may think it is, but, if it was, then the changes you speak of would have already happened. In fact, the women's movement itself is partly to blame. You can see it whenever they choose a cause celebre to rally around, and the way they perpetuate the 'woman as victim' role. I'm not going to go further than saying that, because once that can is fully opened, I get insulted, and quite a few people get angry.

 

[Aunty Em]

I have to agree with you on the womens movement, they don't help their own case by their attitude. It seems the me that "he who shouts loudest" gets heard and those of us who think like me are ignored. I'm as often frustrated by the attitude of other women as by men.

I was brought up to believe that I can do anything that I want to do and it was a shock to me at 14 to discover that other people put limitations on me which didn't exist in my own mind. I began riding a motorcycle when I was 21 and just because I prefered traditionally male pursuits, and still do to some extent, I got labelled as a lesbian by other women, which is untrue.

There were times when I really wished I was male because it would have made life, in many ways, so much easier. But then I would probably have been gay.

 

[greenfreak]

This thread just shows the dichotomy of the women's movement. On one hand, they wish to be treated as equals, and on the other hand, they wish to be treated differently. You can't have it both ways. As for the 'helpless' part, I don't see it. Then again, I don't believe in helping anyone unless A. they ask, or B. The look as if they really need help.

I was wondering where you were. I have to keep remembering when I read your posts that you're not lumping every person into one big stereotype. That being the case, I agree with you.

Both groups should have access to the same types of activities, but they need to be able to do them without the complications that arise from having a mixed gender group.

I have to agree with you there also. There's plenty of time to mix genders later on, and I think you can get more out of seperating them at that age than putting them together. I'd like to know, though, although the girls may want a little bit of the boy scout program, would the boys want more of the girls program? I have to admit, I don't know much about the Girl Scout program these days.

Finally, way to go Auntie Em. I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Ardsgaine]

Listen you overprotective, chauvenistic, back-woods minded has been. These are different times & kids are gonna do those things anyway so you might as well be there to teach them.

Yeah... I'm envisioning a scene from The Meaning of Life here: "Give her a kiss, lad! No need to go stampeding for the clitoris."

I've got no problem with teenagers 16 and up having sex, but even then, I don't want to be the one providing them with the opportunity...

"Kids! Join the Scouts! We offer romantic excursions into the forest for two. Learn to cook over an open fire, and lose your virginity-- but watch out for chiggers!"

Maybe if you're lucky you can participate.

 

[Spirit]

Two years ago, my son and I joined a group called "Junior Forest Wardens". Girls and boys went through this program together from ages 6 - 18. Older than that, you are either a leader or a board member. Anyways, these kids learned all about how to survive in the wilderness with nothing but a knife. My son, 8 at the time, knew which trees were best for making a shelter, how to start a fire without matches, what you can and can't eat - it was incredible. Then at the end of the year, they would all go on a "Survival Camp". A 2 night, 3 day outing. Boys and girls - together - and it was never ever a problem.

The older group was only allowed to bring 2 items where as the younger ones were allowed to bring sleeping bags, food and stuff - for them it was more learning to build a shelter - make a toilet, get water and boil it - stuff like that.

Here, there is no gender. Every body helps eachother. And that's how it should be no matter where you are.

My 2 cents.

 

[freako104]

i agree with spirit. i say different but as tommyj27 we have more similar than different and i think equal treatment for everyone

 

[Ardsgaine]

I'd like to know, though, although the girls may want a little bit of the boy scout program, would the boys want more of the girls program? I have to admit, I don't know much about the Girl Scout program these days.

I don't either really, except I know they're still selling cookies.

I'm not sure whether guys would want to learn Home-Ec type stuff, either. It certainly wouldn't hurt them to know how to sew a stitch. I can sew on a button, but that's about the extent of it. Sailors, in the old days of sailing ships, had to know how to sew. They took pride in being able to make their uniforms look smart by putting ribbon in the seams, and emroidering the name of their ship on the ribbon in their hats.

I'm not sure if guys these days would feel that stuff like that was too 'gay', or not. I know that it would've been 26 yrs ago, when I was in scouts. And don't forget, we're talking about the BSA, here. A guy knowing how to sew would certainly be suspect, and being able to bake a cake would be cause for immediate expulsion.

 

[greenfreak]

My boyfriend learned how to sew and cook from his Grandmother, but I never learned either. But he also never learned how to swim, ride a bike, drive. I've taught him to ride a bike already but haven't gotten to the swimming yet. He does drive a little but we haven't gone for his learner's permit yet. I'm a little concerned about what it will do to our financial situation because he'll be put on my insurance policy if they find another driver living at the same address.

 

[Gonz]

I'm a little concerned about what it will do to our financial situation because he'll be put on my insurance policy if they find another driver living at the same address.

Get married & they can't do a thing

 

[Aunty Em]

I'm not sure whether guys would want to learn Home-Ec type stuff, either. It certainly wouldn't hurt them to know how to sew a stitch. I can sew on a button, but that's about the extent of it. Sailors, in the old days of sailing ships, had to know how to sew. They took pride in being able to make their uniforms look smart by putting ribbon in the seams, and emroidering the name of their ship on the ribbon in their hats.

I'm not sure if guys these days would feel that stuff like that was too 'gay', or not. I know that it would've been 26 yrs ago, when I was in scouts. And don't forget, we're talking about the BSA, here. A guy knowing how to sew would certainly be suspect, and being able to bake a cake would be cause for immediate expulsion.

They call it it Home Technology in school over here and all the kids up to 14 do it. My nephew used to bring home some cracking cakes and pies.

The number of young men I know who take pride in being able to cook well is quite surprising. In fact quite a number are better than their wives.

 

[freako104]

when i took home ec in 6th grade the guys in my class and me werent considered gay by any means. my friend Mike all through middle and High School and even elementary school wanted to be a cook and he was never considered gay. i dont knwo why anyone male would be

 

[Aunty Em]

A couple of years after my nursing career ended I retrained as a chef and I can't say I particularly noticed if any of the guys I worked with were gay. They just seemed like a normal bunch of wise-cracking, sex-obssessed perverts.

 

[freako104]

so they were normal males.

 

[Aunty Em]

so they were normal males.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Ardsgaine]

The number of young men I know who take pride in being able to cook well is quite surprising. In fact quite a number are better than their wives.

I wouldn't say that I'm better than Jan, but I do most of the cooking here. When she really wants to cook, she can make a great dinner. Usually, when she cooks, though, she likes for it to be something that can be cooked in one pot. Somehow she manages to mess up a whole dishwasher full of dishes in the process, though.

 

[greenfreak]

Usually, when she cooks, though, she likes for it to be something that can be cooked in one pot. Somehow she manages to mess up a whole dishwasher full of dishes in the process, though.

lol that's me too.

I bake pretty well but Rusty does most of the cooking in my house. I haven't baked in quite a while.

 

[HomeLAN]

Wow, what a great thread! How did I miss it until now?

A few thoughts:

IMO, men and women are absolutely different at a fundamental level. My belief is that we're hard-wired differently. Watching all my nephews and nieces grow up, I can honestly say that these differences in thinking processes, reactions to specific and general situations, preferences in ambiance and activities, and even in such things as what talents and skills are developed most rapidly seem to exist almost from birth. As a disclaimer to what I know is coming, yes there are exceptions to the rule. But not very many, based on my experiences. I've seen a 3 month old girl and a 3 month old boy raised by the same parents react totally differently to the same early sensory teaching regimens. IMO, this is natural, and it's necessary. Raising children is a bitch. It's a rewarding bitch, but it's a bitch. No one person can truly bring all that's needed to the table. Two people, with differing talent pools and interests, can. Thus, the differences to which Prof refers.

This DOES NOT mean that one group is superior to the other. I won't go all the way through this in its most obvious example (making a mariage work correctly), because Prof has already done the job better than I can. Kudos.

However, the differences are there. In many (many, many, many) activities, especially in the formative years, this is an extremely strong argument for separate programs. In adult years, it may not hold as much water, but the basis still exists.

As to the specifics of what Greenfreak brought up, I was taught that it is not only polite, but actually a requirement of being a decent adult male, to offer help to women with things that take more than a little muscle. I've already been slapped around enough on these types of things that I've mostly given up on opening doors for women. It's possible that I may never forgive the rabid feminists of this country for forcing me to drop what I saw as a courtesy that it was once my pleasure to provide. I will not, however, stop offering assistance with things like lifting and carrying.

I find it interesting that many women I know complain about the lack of "good men" out there, yet still also complain about men simply trying to be what we see as polite, as in this kind of situation. I sometimes wonder id there isn't a connection between this scarcity of good males and the abundance of women ready and willing to snub what used to be common courtesy. After all, everybody learns to one degree or another from experience...