Helpless women?

[tommyj27]

Thanks to women's lib, women can now enter the YMCA , Boy scouts...

IMHO from my experience in both these organizations I understand why women do join them. The boy scouts (still IMO) has a much different program from the girl scouts, they reflect many of the same core values but vary in content. I know many girls who were in girl scouts that have never been paddling, much less in the Boundry Waters for a week. I know even less that have been hiking in the mountains of Wyoming or involved in serious rock climbing programs, all of which are things I've experienced as a result of being in scouting. the girl scouts don't seem to offer programming comparable to this and as a result I know of very few women who have had these experiences, or who remained in girl scouts much beyond elementary school; interestingly enough, the number of women i know who have said they wished they had such experiences is significant.
My experience working at the YMCA has also shown me the same thing. I encourage girls to improve themselves and go beyond what they think they are capable of to what they truly are capable of. This is something they likely would not get elsewhere due to inflexible gender biases that still exist in society and in their own minds, despite all that is said otherwise.

 

[Professur]

But why not use that knowledge to improve the feminine version instead of invading the male domain?

 

[tommyj27]

it seems to me that effort is most effectively spent concentrating on a single product rather than trying to maintain parallel versions of the same thing. In this application there is the fact that equivalent programs have not appeared, which has caused the push for integration in the existing programs. IMO the money and capital to maintain parallel programs doesn't exist, both the boy scouts and the ymca get a great deal of their program budgets through private donations; hence maintaining two equal programs would require a loss of income and subsequent loss of program quality for the original programs. nevermind the obvious propegation of gender-role descrimination.

 

[Gonz]

I'm not biting

Damn

 

[greenfreak]

I'm not biting

Damn

Ok let me rephrase...

I'll bite only if I like the way you beg.

 

[freako104]

being male this is what i like in a woman:
independence
intelligence
loyalty
caring
fidelity
affectionate.
strong(both emotionally and physically)

 

[freako104]

oh yea i prefer sadomasochist women thats a plus too but they dont have to be as long as theyre ok that im into that

 

[Aunty Em]

oh yea i prefer sadomasochist women thats a plus too but they dont have to be as long as theyre ok that im into that

Well you won't like me then 'cos I'm just a sadist. I'm definately NOT into masochism.

 

[freako104]

oh yea i prefer sadomasochist women thats a plus too but they dont have to be as long as theyre ok that im into that

Well you won't like me then 'cos I'm just a sadist. I'm definately NOT into masochism.

i like it both ways i give a little i get a little. its why i bought myself a whip at ren fair

 

[Professur]

it seems to me that effort is most effectively spent concentrating on a single product rather than trying to maintain parallel versions of the same thing. In this application there is the fact that equivalent programs have not appeared, which has caused the push for integration in the existing programs. IMO the money and capital to maintain parallel programs doesn't exist, both the boy scouts and the ymca get a great deal of their program budgets through private donations; hence maintaining two equal programs would require a loss of income and subsequent loss of program quality for the original programs. nevermind the obvious propegation of gender-role descrimination.

Propagation of gender-role descrimination??? WTF is that supposed to mean? That men and women are treated differently? They are different!!!

You're a marketing consultant, aren't you? You sound like one.

 

[tommyj27]

my bad word choice notwithstanding, i'm not trying to say that men and women are the same; what i meant was the existence of seperate programs perpetuates (there is the word i was looking for) the myth that women cannot compete (or function) at the same level as men; that they are somehow inferior, or not deserving of being treated as peers by men.

and no, i'm not a marketing consultant, i'd have to put a gun in my mouth if i were.

You're a sophist, aren't you? You sound like one.

 

[Professur]

what i meant was the existence of seperate programs perpetuates the myth that women cannot compete (or function) at the same level as men; that they are somehow inferior, or not deserving of being treated as peers by men

Really? I thought that the existance of separate programs reflected the fact that the disparate groups have different needs. Does a pubecent girl have the same needs as a pubecent boy?

The fact of the matter is that in almost all cases, the male group was created first. The female group was founded later to offer similar opportunities to women and girls, but oriented to their needs.

That the groups don't compete at the same level isn't a myth. All you need to do is look that the olympic record book to realise that men and women can't compete at the same levelin all things. That's not to say that men and women can't compete at the same level in some things.

But is it right to saddle an entire male group to the female level. Or to saddle the female group to the male level in the things they excel at? Is it right to throw pubecent girls into a support group for pubecent boys? All in the name of an equality that doesn't even exist?

Do men and women have equal value? Damn right. And I'll take on anyone who says otherwise. But are they the same? Do they have the same needs? The same desires? The same abilities? Do they equate? Not a chance. And it's time that that fact was recognised. Different doesn't mean inferior. Men are not better than women. Women are not better than men. Women should not be limited in what they can do. But neither should the men. If the men want a men's only club, why is that an offence against women? Are they incapable of making a women's club equal or superior to a men's club? Don't tell me it's because of money. I'm one of precious few people who can say their wife doesn't work. And even then, she has her own money to spend as she will.

And I'm more of an idealist than a sophist. But I'm limited by the fact that I can't type as fast as I think.

 

[Professur]

Great topic, GF.

 

[greenfreak]

I thought you liked it--that's the longest post we've seen from you in a while.

I especially liked this:

Different doesn't mean inferior.

That seems to be the crux of it all, at least for me. I think there needs to be a greater understanding of that all around.

In the case of the boy scouts vs. the girl scouts, the girl scout people should have changed their program to include some of the activities of the boy scouts. If they had, I might have stayed in the girl scouts longer than a month. I was never a girly girl and getting badges for stuff like sewing and cooking and selling cookies didn't interest me. Now if they had weekend hiking retreats and taught me how to make a fire without matches, I would have enjoyed that and found it useful on my yearly backpacking trips with my Father.

This comment

But I'm limited by the fact that I can't type as fast as I think.

also brought back memories of my 12th grade typing class. Wouldn't you know that there were only 2 boys in it. Typing was too sissy for the boys but think of how much of a benefit it would be to a guy this day and age to be able to type 70 wpm instead of hunting and pecking.

They make shop class a requirement for girls, why not make cooking/typing a requirement for boys? Maybe they do, I've been out of school for a while.

 

[freako104]

it seems to me that effort is most effectively spent concentrating on a single product rather than trying to maintain parallel versions of the same thing. In this application there is the fact that equivalent programs have not appeared, which has caused the push for integration in the existing programs. IMO the money and capital to maintain parallel programs doesn't exist, both the boy scouts and the ymca get a great deal of their program budgets through private donations; hence maintaining two equal programs would require a loss of income and subsequent loss of program quality for the original programs. nevermind the obvious propegation of gender-role descrimination.

Propagation of gender-role descrimination??? WTF is that supposed to mean? That men and women are treated differently? They are different!!!

You're a marketing consultant, aren't you? You sound like one.

your right that they are different prof but shouldnt they be treated the same and have the same rights?

 

[Luis G]

I think that's what he meant in his last post.

I agree with prof, why is it offensive for some women to have men only clubs? i still don't get it.

Fortunately, we don't have that type of problems (men only is allowed), so i'm a bit unfamiliar with the situation.

 

[freako104]

some people like to cause shit i guess. most women even most of the feminists arent anti male they just want equal treatment and say were all equal. that might be why. but again im not sure myself. i may have misinterperted profs quote and thought he was being a bit anti female and thought it was that. either that or just male chauvanist so again i may have misinterperted. sorry if i did prof.

 

[tommyj27]

You are correct that men and women are in fact different. However, I would say that men and women have more in common than not. Obviously there are many instances where gender differences warrant seperate groups that can properly address those needs. How much social pressures magnify and distort those differences I cannot say. My argument has been and continues to be centered on the specific examples of the YMCA and the Boy Scouts, which I believe are cases where men and women can function at the same levels. These are also programs which have no equal specifically for women, despite efforts to do so.

Why have these efforts fallen short? I believe it is partially a result of stereotypes and percieved inabilities or differences that are not true. I also stand behind my statment that money is an issue.

I think your example of Olympic athletes, while correct, does not apply. Olympic athletes represent a tiny and uncharacteristic sample of the population where women are only limited by sexual dimorphism. This cannot be used to make an accurate generalization about the full population. Nor do I think that groups are saddled by the presence of the opposite gender any more than they are slowed by the weakest member of the same gender. This would be more appropriately considered on an individual basis, rather than by excluding an entire gender based on a generalization. With this I am not trying to imply that an organization should lower its standards to accomodate anybody.

greenfreak, i completely agree that a typing course should be required. when i was in high school i didn't take keyboarding because my technical interests were already far more advanced and now i'm definately wishing i had.

 

[Ardsgaine]

No, I'm sorry. If I'm a scout leader, there's no way I'm taking a mixed group of teenage boys and girls out into the woods on a camping trip. That's just asking for trouble. Both groups should have access to the same types of activities, but they need to be able to do them without the complications that arise from having a mixed gender group.

 

[tommyj27]

good point ards