Hillary Clinton: U.S. Weakened by Debt

Gonz said:
Can you say Kyoto?
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I'd jsut like to remind people that Kyoto isn't about reducing fuck all. It's about moving money to the third world (in the laughable cause of helping them avoid oil dependance ... when most of them can't even feed their populations)
 
chcr said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they have more "persons?" Given time, I suspect they'll catch up. OTOH, their industry has basically no ecological restrictions or controls at all, do they?
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Yes, if everybody in China started being as wasteful as the US there'd be a crisis for sure.
 
spike said:
Yes, if everybody in China started being as wasteful as the US there'd be a crisis for sure.
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Spike, Spike, Spike...

Most of China is third world at best. They simply can't be as wasteful as individuals in the US. I'm absolutely certain you find this somehow noble and self-sacrificing or some such, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Thanks for the giggle though. :D
 
Can you say Kyoto?? :finger: :D

oh sure, china will make the US look like bambi in eco terms in the future. No two ways. :shrug:

But it will also be the main superpower-on the-rise both financially and in terms of political / military clout...

you gotta watch out for China.

But you guys should watch your debts as well, the war is costing a freakin fortune - and not just directly neither.

When the dollar is (as it will be within 10-15-20 years) seriously challenged by and or both the Euro and the Yen on World financial markets and as oil currency etc, you will need to be in a much tighter fiscal position.

last thing we want is either Brussels or the Chinese calling the shots!

Although brussels we could sort out an awful lot easier if push came to shove or there was REAL incentive to broker it.

:shrug:
 
Most of China is third world at best. They simply can't be as wasteful as individuals in the US. I'm absolutely certain you find this somehow noble and self-sacrificing or some such, but nothing could be further from the truth.
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You may be right but the people in the large cities in China are about 1/4th as wasteful as the average US citizen. That's not really explained by your "3rd world" theory.

I don't know that it's at all noble or self-sacrificing. It just happens to be how it is. It might be possible for them to catch up.

The assumptions were funny.
 
They don't have to be wasteful, they import garbage (literally) and because they have low standards on emissions etc... they also import pollution in that products which are too expensive to produce 'green' in 1st world countries are being produced in China instead. China gets to keep all the pollution for itself while the countries of origin get to maintain an air of environmental respect. :p *piss2* .

It's incredibly short-sighted thinking by both China and the first-world countries....as if pollutants stay within borders :rofl:

It's also one of the reasons for Kyoto... trying to stop 1st world countries from using 3rd world countries as their garbage dumps by making them accountable.
 
Tell me... if a country has to buy Carbon Credits from a third-world or rising nation in order to meet it's standards, how accountable do you think they become for increasing that country's carbon count?

Ie: Canada wants to buy 1000 carbon credits from China. If they send 500 credits worth of pollution-inducing work to China, they won't be able to buy those 1,000 credits from there now will they?

So... either they help reduce emissions in China by NOT exporting their crap overseas OR they get better at maintaining a green manufacturing plan so that they don't have to buy Carbon credits from overseas.

Either way...they can't just fire and forget when it comes to pollution anymore.
 
Stop it, man, you're killing me.
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See?

eco terrorism IS working!

one less (smelly?) footprint on the western side! :D

The final solution is indeed a solution to ecological concerns, ne' pas?

I'm suprised mass genocide hasn't yet been suggested?
 
spike said:
You may be right but the people in the large cities in China are about 1/4th as wasteful as the average US citizen. That's not really explained by your "3rd world" theory.

I don't know that it's at all noble or self-sacrificing. It just happens to be how it is. It might be possible for them to catch up.

The assumptions were funny.
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Yes, as a matter of fact it is. Completely and specifically. :shrug:

To what assumptions do you refer?
 
Well, first of all, it's not really a theory. Most of China is a third world nation at best. The reason they aren't as wasteful is because, having less, they have less to waste. :shrug: This seems perfectly clear to me. I don't know why Spike thinks living in a large city has any bearing on this whatsoever. I suspect that he simply didn't think it through and was just being argumentative and contradictory, but we won't be surprised when he contradicts that, will we? :rofl:

Maybe he thinks third world nations don't have large cities????
 
Give it time.

But relative statistics in China and rate of change there don't currently anywhere near even attempt to meet up in the middle...

:shrug:

Look at England pre / and post Industrial revolution!


Whole new ball game.
 
Gonz said:
We haven't in over a generation. I assume you guys don't either. Our problems have been adressed.
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Sowwy Charlie

Many old electronic goods gather dust in storage waiting to be reused, recycled or thrown away. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates that as much as three-quarters of the computers sold in the United States are stockpiled in garages and closets. When thrown away, they end up in landfills or incinerators or, more recently, are exported to Asia.
E-waste is routinely exported by developed countries to developing ones,
often in violation of the international law. Inspections of 18 European
seaports in 2005 found as much as 47 percent of waste destined for
export, including e-waste, was illegal. In
the United States, it is estimated that 50-80 percent of the waste collected for recycling is being exported in this way. This practice is legal because
the United States has not ratified the Basel Convention

China tried to prevent this trade by banning the import of e-waste in
2000. However, we have discovered that the laws are not working; e-waste
is still arriving in Guiya of Guangdong Province, the main center of
e-waste scrapping in China. <br><br>We have also found a growing
e-waste trade problem in India. Twenty-five thousand workers are employed at scrap yards in Delhi alone, where 10,00 - 20,000 tons of e-waste is handled each year, 25 percent of this being computers. Other e-waste scrap yards have been found in Meerut, Ferozabad, Chennai, Bangalore and Mumbai.

In the 1990s, governments in the EU, Japan and some U.S. states set
up e-waste "recycling" systems. But many countries did not have
the capacity to deal with the sheer quantity of e-waste they generated
or with its hazardous nature. <br><br>Therefore,
they began exporting
the problem to developing countries where laws to protect workers and
the environment are inadequate or not enforced. It is also cheaper to
"recycle" waste in developing countries; the cost of glass-to-glass
recycling of computer monitors inthe United States is 10times more than
in China.<br><br>Demand
in Asia for electronic waste began to grow when scrap yards found they
could extract valuable substances such as copper, iron, silicon, nickel
and gold, during the recycling process. A mobile phone, for example, is
19 percent copper and eight percent iron.<br>
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Greenpeace


I'm not saying that Canada is any better... but it's still happening, hear and in Europe
 
chcr said:
Maybe he thinks third world nations don't have large cities????
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What definition of third world are you using?

:rofl:

Here's the third world in red:
300px-HDImap.PNG


Third World

Countries that have more advanced economies than developing nations but haven't yet gained the level of those in the First World are grouped under the term Newly Industrialized Countries or NICs. Current examples includes China, India, Mexico or South Africa to name a few.
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Now, if you could start backing up the things you say I wouldn't call them assumptions. :laugh:
 
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