Murdering mom of 3

[Gato_Solo]

Authority...no one's. If you have psychophrenia, you feel as if you're perfectly normal. Everything makes sense. If she got off the meds for a bit and started feeling 'odd'..she'd think that she was fine and didn't need the meds. That's the reality of the psych slippery slope.

Without follow-up, it's too easy to fall off the meds. It's damn inexpensive to follow-up too! A piece of paper with name/address/etc.. plus med prescribed, dates and who to contact if the person doesn't show up.

She moved from state to state and obviously she didn't didn't get followed. Didn't get a new Doc either.

I'd like to disagree with that. She, at the time, was a responsible adult. Besides...we're not talking psychophrenia, we were talking schizophrenia. She may have forgotten to take the meds, true, but it takes time for those meds to wear off...You take them daily and you have some overlap if you run out. You're making excuses for her irresponsible behavior.

I think you missed my point about bringing up Alzheimer's and Parkinson's sufferers. Trying to tell them to stop being so forgetful or to stop shaking is like telling someone with schizophrenia to act normally. A person cannot be held responsible if their body doesn't function correctly, specifically in this case, the brain.

And you missed mine about the Parkinsons and Alzheimers patients not being inherently dangerous.

 

[MrBishop]

I'd like to disagree with that. She, at the time, was a responsible adult. Besides...we're not talking psychophrenia, we were talking schizophrenia.

Pedanticman strikes again!

 

[MrBishop]

She may have forgotten to take the meds, true, but it takes time for those meds to wear off...You take them daily and you have some overlap if you run out. You're making excuses for her irresponsible behavior.

You're mixing up the two. One is her taking responsibility for taking her meds. The other is the killing of her kids.

Yes...she was responsible for taking her meds, and it does take a while for the removal of the meds to take effect, but once you're convinced that you don't need them...the weeks lapse into months. I'm not sure about her, but before the court-enforced meds, it would take 2 weeks before we started noticing a difference in my Mom. Luckily for her, my father, my sister and I were there to notice... this woman wasn't surrounded by her family. She was in a shelter and it's obvious that nobody was paying all that much attention.

The first responsibility led to the next...the killing of her kids.

 

[AllEars']

I'd like to disagree with that. She, at the time, was a responsible adult. Besides...we're not talking psychophrenia, we were talking schizophrenia. She may have forgotten to take the meds, true, but it takes time for those meds to wear off...You take them daily and you have some overlap if you run out. You're making excuses for her irresponsible behavior.

She was not a responsible adult if she was not taking her meds, sorry.

Your right if she forgot to take her meds for 1 or so days there is an overlap time. It usually takes up to 14 days for these type of meds to be out of your system. So, again she was not a responsible adult because she had been off her meds for some time. The disease if not treated right will allow the voices to tell them not to take the meds.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

And you missed mine about the Parkinsons and Alzheimers patients not being inherently dangerous.

No, you don't have one. It's irrelevant. I was drawing a fairly simple analogy that I thought most people would be able to grasp.

It didn't have to be a brain disorder, you know. It could have been: try telling someone with emphysema to breathe properly, or with liver disease to not look so yellow all the time.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Unless, you are deemed incompetent by a judge no one can force you to take your meds. Do you finish all those antibitoics every time a doctor prescribes them to you? Or even follow every doctors order that is given to you exactly as he says?

Short answer for me: yes, I do.

I do keep drinking alcohol when I'm on the antibiotics, though. No problem.

The question I am trying to ask is who failed this woman and her kids, if anyone? If she has a history, why was this tragedy allowed to take place?

Maybe society needs to re-think it's attitude towards mental illness, because it seems time and time again, sick people are allowed to fall into destitution or are simply ignored because they are too much trouble, allowing the situation to progress until they are a danger to themselves or other people.

 

[MrBishop]

And this is where they usually end up.

In all seriousness...many of the homeless that you see on the street are those kicked out of psych wards to make space for more...or those who just check themselves out. The wards can't keep them against their wills.

 

[Dave]

Maybe society needs to re-think it's attitude towards mental illness, because it seems time and time again, sick people are allowed to fall into destitution or are simply ignored because they are too much trouble, allowing the situation to progress until they are a danger to themselves or other people.

its not that they are too much trouble. there are plenty of dedicated people working to help these people. the problem is a lack of funding and proper facilities to care for and, more importantly, house these people. they fall through the cracks simply because of the sheer number of them vs the number of mental health workers trying to keep them in a stable real world enviroment.
society's attitude has changed. mental illness is not the stigma it was 15-20 years ago. society needs to loosen the purse strings a bit to fund the programs necessary to help keep this from happeneing again.

 

[Gato_Solo]

No, you don't have one. It's irrelevant. I was drawing a fairly simple analogy that I thought most people would be able to grasp.

It didn't have to be a brain disorder, you know. It could have been: try telling someone with emphysema to breathe properly, or with liver disease to not look so yellow all the time.

Your analogy is faulty, but I've been trying not to be condescending. Since I'm the only one doing that, I guess that means I'm the only one not allowed to be condescending.

1. All the diseases you mention have nothing to do with this woman. You're trying to use explanations of things with no controls with something that has a control (medication). She had a way of controlling what she heard and chose not to do so. Your argument is useless by not seeing this point.
2. She had a responsibility to take her medication. She knew why she had those meds, and that should've been enough impetus for her to continue her medication. SHE CHOSE TO STOP TAKING HER MEDICATION. That's the truth. Gloss over it however you like, but it won't lessen the impact of her behavior one iota.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

1. All the diseases you mention have nothing to do with this woman. You're trying to use explanations of things with no controls with something that has a control (medication). She had a way of controlling what she heard and chose not to do so. Your argument is useless by not seeing this point.

2. She had a responsibility to take her medication. She knew why she had those meds, and that should've been enough impetus for her to continue her medication. SHE CHOSE TO STOP TAKING HER MEDICATION. That's the truth. Gloss over it however you like, but it won't lessen the impact of her behavior one iota.

I'm bringing up other diseases because sometimes people fail to recognise that mental illness manifests itself by affecting behaviour, and that trying to tell someone with schizophrenia to try to ignore their illness is the same as trying to tell someone with, say, Parkinson's to ignore their's.

Her not taking her own medication is simply another facet of her overall diminished responsibility. It is another part of her illness.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Her not taking her own medication is simply another facet of her overall diminished responsibility. It is another part of her illness.

Sorry. I don't buy that. You're claiming that her not taking medication was associated with the disease. I'm saying that if she'd've taken her meds, like the doctor told her, the disease wouldn't have manifested that way. You're making excuses, and I'm not. Simple as that.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

No, you're trying to find justification for your own ignorance and self-righteous nature. Whether you find the "excuses" to be real or not is irrelevant, because you appear to understand the grand sum of fuck all about the illness.

What exactly is your solution to the problem of mentally ill people harming themselves and others? So far, you appear to have suggested nothing, except schizophrenia being a phantom illness and some sort of bizarre reverse-sexism conspiracy that suggests women get more sympathy when they kill children (which they don't).

 

[Gato_Solo]

Your moronic attempts to get me to lose my temper are laughable, and your arguments are extremely thin. As for your attitude towards rewarding irresponsibility, I have only this to say.

You, my friend understand nothing of adult responsibility. As far as knowledge of illness goes, you know even less of the illness than I do. You're making assumptions based upon ignorance and your attitude towards me, rather than actual thought.

 

[Starya]

Let's just hand her a knife & turn our back.

Eager to die, Gonz?


On a more srious note, I'm pretty much with ash, Bobby and Bish on this one. She needs treatment, but this does not equal being set free.

As far as her taking her meds: If she entered a situation where her meds were no longer having a satisfactory effect on her, she may have experienced dilussions (hearing voices etc) causing her to stop taking it altogether. Is she then a responsible adult at the time she stops? No. Mentally ill people can have ups and downs even when medicated, and other factors may also influence the effect her meds had on her (such as weight gain). People can also enter an acute psychosis, these may be brought on by traumatising/very stressful events.

Another thing: Some mentally ill people will not take the meds as the doctor ordered, because they are paranoid and believe the doctor is in on a conspiracy towards them, hence beleiving the meds are harmful to them. Are they "responsible adults" when they decide not to do what the doc said? No.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Your moronic attempts to get me to lose my temper are laughable, and your arguments are extremely thin. As for your attitude towards rewarding irresponsibility, I have only this to say.

You, my friend understand nothing of adult responsibility. As far as knowledge of illness goes, you know even less of the illness than I do. You're making assumptions based upon ignorance and your attitude towards me, rather than actual thought.

If my arguments are thin it should be fairly easy to address them. I'd also be making these statements whether you were here or not. You're nothing special.

I don't believe I said anything about "rewarding" irresponsibility. That's a bit of a bizarre statement to make. The simple reality of the situation is that having a dysfunctional brain affects your behaviour and your ability to make decisions, percieve reality or follow logic.

Again, you're offering no solutions to the problem here. How do you propose punishing (by jailing them in a normal prison or executing them) a mentally ill person will stop other mentally ill people from hurting people in future?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Eager to die, Gonz?


On a more srious note, I'm pretty much with ash, Bobby and Bish on this one. She needs treatment, but this does not equal being set free.

As far as her taking her meds: If she entered a situation where her meds were no longer having a satisfactory effect on her, she may have experienced dilussions (hearing voices etc) causing her to stop taking it altogether. Is she then a responsible adult at the time she stops? No. Mentally ill people can have ups and downs even when medicated, and other factors may also influence the effect her meds had on her (such as weight gain). People can also enter an acute psychosis, these may be brought on by traumatising/very stressful events.

Another thing: Some mentally ill people will not take the meds as the doctor ordered, because they are paranoid and believe the doctor is in on a conspiracy towards them, hence beleiving the meds are harmful to them. Are they "responsible adults" when they decide not to do what the doc said? No.

And none of the above has been applied to her situation. If it had been, then you, Bobby, Bish, and ash would have something. That's also where you guys go wrong. You made your decision based upon what might be the cause, when the only thing we know for sure is that she stopped taking her medication of her own volition.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Even if a person is on medication, close communication and support from family or care-workers is as important a part of treatment, to make sure the patient stays on track.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Even if a person is on medication, close communication and support from family or care-workers is as important a part of treatment, to make sure the patient stays on track.

True, but the ultimate responsibility for taking the medication lies with the patient. If the patient is unable to take the medication, then it falls on the primary caregiver. She was able to take the medication, and she didn't.

 

[Starya]

And none of the above has been applied to her situation. If it had been, then you, Bobby, Bish, and ash would have something. That's also where you guys go wrong. You made your decision based upon what might be the cause, when the only thing we know for sure is that she stopped taking her medication of her own volition.

I don't see how bringing up such possible situations (as in: possible reasons, but not necessarily the case here) is all that different from statements like "I don't believe she had schizophrenia" and "She, at the time, was a responsible adult." None of us actually know what was going on in her head at the time she seized taking her meds, and we may never know for sure. Which means that all we can do is debate the various possible scenarios.




As for who was the primary caregiver here.. The childrens grandmother apparantly held temporary custody when the woman was admitted to a hospital in January. She later got custody back. When her mother became aware that she had stopped taking her meds and also made threats regarding the boys(!), she contacted social services to seek partial custody of the boys. They said there was nothing they could do. So. the signs were there. The tragedy could have been prevented.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I don't see how bringing up such possible situations (as in: possible reasons, but not necessarily the case here) is all that different from statements like "I don't believe she had schizophrenia" and "She, at the time, was a responsible adult." None of us actually know what was going on in her head at the time she seized taking her meds, and we may never know for sure. Which means that all we can do is debate the various possible scenarios.

We do, however, know that she stopped taking her medication. We also know that she calmly waited for the police after the children were dropped into the bay.

BTW...I asked for proof that she had schizophrenia because too many people use mental illness as a dodge for responsibility even if they are not affected. You can call me jaded if you wish, but I don't believe everything I see without some kind of proof.

As for who was the primary caregiver here.. The childrens grandmother apparantly held temporary custody when the woman was admitted to a hospital in January. She later got custody back. When her mother became aware that she had stopped taking her meds and also made threats regarding the boys(!), she contacted social services to seek partial custody of the boys. They said there was nothing they could do. So. the signs were there. The tragedy could have been prevented.

Okay...once again. The only thing not in dispute here is that she stopped taking her medication. Everything up until that point looks fine. Since the system now shows some culpability, I'll say this much. The system can only do so much. It's up to the individuals to be responsible. I still blame her for stopping her meds on her own, but the system now takes about 30% of the blame for failing to protect the children.