Murdering mom of 3

She needs treatment, but this does not equal being set free.
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1. If she can't be made to understand what she's done, how is it a kindness to keep her alive.

2. If she can be made to understand what she's done, how could she possibly live with herself?

Off with her head.
 
Gato_Solo said:
BTW...I asked for proof that she had schizophrenia because too many people use mental illness as a dodge for responsibility even if they are not affected. You can call me jaded if you wish, but I don't believe everything I see without some kind of proof.
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The main issue is that there is no test for schizophrenia, per se. No blood or urine samples that will tell a physician whether someone is or will become schizophrenic. The main method is through observation of actions and the person's responce to antipsychotics.
While it's true that an EEG can give you some insight, it is a very expensive test, and certainly not one administered on every potential schizophrenic.

All we can go on to guage her illness is reports of psychlogists and psychiatrists who had followed her in the past. If she was deemed schizophrenic enough to place her before...she's still schizophrenic.

Like Starya said...there are many factors which will render doses ineffective, which is why follow-up is absolutely necessary. Doses need to be adjusted based on age, weight, side-effects and effectivness. If the doc who was following her stopped doing so and her dosage became ineffective, one of her first reactions after falling back into her psychosis would be to discontinue her meds. I've seen it over and over again both through my home experiences and through other patients who shared the ward my mother spent time in. Patients get placed, they get followed, they get 'well, they get released..some do fine for a long time (years even) but eventually they come back. I've a friend who placed herself on several occasions because she didn't feel right. They adjusted her meds and she went back out. She does have a mild case though.

This woman wasn't being followed. We can make educated guesses all day long about what made her stop taking her meds...but the point is that at some point she did stop, she relapsed into her psychosis, nobody caught it and she ended up killing her kids.
 
yeah, every time someone does something like this, and people say, "why wasnt she taking her meds!!11!!1" i start wondering how much those people really know about psychotropic drugs.
sometimes meds work great and dandy.
sometimes they dont do anything.
sometimes meds make things worse (re: someone i knew who broke windows in his house in a wellbutrin-induced rage, and the night i spent in the hospital because of a manic eposide brought on by the meds i was on, and the fact that my fiance has neurological damage from being overmedicated for too long, and also that i have a friend who has become suicidally depressed after he was prescribed and dutifully took a mood stabilizer.).
even if you go to your followups and tweak and adjust as necessary, meds dont make it all better. even if you genuinely try to let them help you, they still can fail. they can stop working. i'm unmedicated now because they all stopped working. my psychiatrist gave me the ok on this.

by the way, my fiance is schizoaffective (bipolar with schizophrenic effects... much the same thing), and attests that often when schizophrenics are put on meds, when the symptoms stop, they think they're cured and go off the meds, only to "schiz out" again. that's just how it works sometimes. i know that's something a lot of bipolar people do too. that's why i initally stopped.... because i felt better. turns out i pretty much was, but that's not always the case. but yeah. i told jay about this thread and he told me to add that bit as his .02. cos he's dealt with it since he was a kid.
 
Murder may not be the correct term that should be used when explaining what she did. Through her negligent actions and reckless disregard for her children’s safety her willful discontinuation of her medication makes her responsible for two counts of manslaughter. She might qualify for manslaughter because the crime was do directly to her negligent behavior and lack of premeditation and or malice towards the victims.
 
Winky said:
She needs a book and movie deal and a medal
a real American hero I tell ya!

A poster child for the "post-birth-abortion" crowd!
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She is to be looked up too
She is the role model for Mom's everywhere

Yippeee
 
ekahs retsam said:
Murder may not be the correct term that should be used when explaining what she did. Through her negligent actions and reckless disregard for her children’s safety her willful discontinuation of her medication makes her responsible for two counts of manslaughter. She might qualify for manslaughter because the crime was do directly to her negligent behavior and lack of premeditation and or malice towards the victims.
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Good point, although she'd be up for three counts, not two. :p

Maybe they could get her on third-degree murder at best.
 
They were her Kids
she can do with them as she sees fit
it is a muthas right to a post-birth abortion
(ultra-late term?)
that is @ issue here!
 
ash r said:
can you explain that? it doesnt make sense to me.
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Read my lips, Ash: She killed her children. I don't think she understands that in any meaningful way (or ever will).
 
Dont' go off the deep end, chcr. Ash didn't quite get the gist of your sentence. Took me a bit too.

**Attempting to interpret**

Ash - if she is so far gone that despite medication, she cannot get to the point where she understands that her children are dead and that she did it, is it a kindness to let her live? Would it do her any good to jail her? Would she understand what she was being jailed for? Is the death penalty a better choice in this case?
 
MrBishop said:
Dont' go off the deep end, chcr. Ash didn't quite get the gist of your sentence. Took me a bit too.

**Attempting to interpret**

Ash - if she is so far gone that despite medication, she cannot get to the point where she understands that her children are dead and that she did it, is it a kindness to let her live? Would it do her any good to jail her? Would she understand what she was being jailed for? Is the death penalty a better choice in this case?
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That was exactly my point Bish.

Didn't think I was going off the deep end. Ash, you know as well as I what she did. You're not supposed to understand why, then you'd be insane (you don't, do you? j/k).

Sometimes death is the kindest solution, and not only for the terminally ill.
 
Bobby Hogg said:
If she suffers from schizophrenia then she deserves the same sympathy any other sick person recieves. Perhaps more, because her illness has possibly made her kill her own children, and now she has that guilt on her conscience.

You wouldn't tell a person with Parkinson's to stop shaking, or a person with Alzheimer's to stop being so forgetful, so we should be more understanding of people with schizophrenia so that we can prevent tragedies like this happening.
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Isn't this the same person who stated in another thread that psychology is not valid? Make up your mind(s) already.

From the horse's mouth

More to the point, schizophrenics are seldom a real danger to other people. They are far more likely to hurt themselves than another person. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not as frequent as some sources would have us believe.
 
Gato_Solo said:
Sorry. I don't buy that. You're claiming that her not taking medication was associated with the disease. I'm saying that if she'd've taken her meds, like the doctor told her, the disease wouldn't have manifested that way. You're making excuses, and I'm not. Simple as that.
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Schizophrenics live in a cruel cycle. They crash, end up in a hospital, and get started on meds. The meds make them feel better asnd function better. In time, they work so well that the schizophrenic decides that they are cured, and stop the meds. Second verse same as the first. It's well documented.
 
MrBishop said:
The main issue is that there is no test for schizophrenia, per se. No blood or urine samples that will tell a physician whether someone is or will become schizophrenic. The main method is through observation of actions and the person's responce to antipsychotics.
While it's true that an EEG can give you some insight, it is a very expensive test, and certainly not one administered on every potential schizophrenic.

All we can go on to guage her illness is reports of psychlogists and psychiatrists who had followed her in the past. If she was deemed schizophrenic enough to place her before...she's still schizophrenic.
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True, there is no test. But there are diagnostic criteria that are fairly straightforward.

Now, if a schizophrenic is stable and savvy, they can minimize these criteria and fool an overworked ER doc. If openly psychotic, a ten year old could figure it out.

The main method of detection, however, is not response to antipsychotics. It is an effective, well conducted clinical interview with a liscensed psychologist. They'll catch it damn near every time.
 
If they have a functioning brain.

I used to go with my ex to his shrink. There he'd often be all cheerful and "feeling great", and she'd be all "yay, good for you". Then we'd get back in the car, and he'd be worried who she was off reporting to now. o_O (I sometimes wondered where she nicked her diploma.)
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
The main method of detection, however, is not response to antipsychotics. It is an effective, well conducted clinical interview with a liscensed psychologist. They'll catch it damn near every time.
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Perhaps I was oversimplifying to try to find a way to 'prove' the existance of schizophrenia (in this woman) other than a sworn statement by a psychologist. Gato seems to have been looking for more 'concrete' proof of her condition beyond a report by her former clinician.
Gato said:
I asked for proof that she had schizophrenia because too many people use mental illness as a dodge for responsibility even if they are not affected
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It's also why I mentioned follow-through. If she was being followed, someone dropped the ball. I wouldn't go so far as to place blame on their shoulders, but if she was schizophrenic and off her meds, I'd be hard pressed to call her evil, despite what she did.

It makes it easy to understand why, in the past, people with schizophrenia were thought to be possesed by devils.
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
Isn't this the same person who stated in another thread that psychology is not valid? Make up your mind(s) already.

From the horse's mouth

More to the point, schizophrenics are seldom a real danger to other people. They are far more likely to hurt themselves than another person. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not as frequent as some sources would have us believe.
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I don't think psychology is a science, no. That said, mental illness is a physiological condition as much as an illness of any other organ in the body. That is my point here, from a medical or physiological standpoint.
 
And psychology just happens to be the discipline that emphasises the study of those physiological conditions, medically and otherwise.

It'd be like saying dentistry isn't a science, but we should treat cavities medically. Don't make sense.
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
And psychology just happens to be the discipline that emphasises the study of those physiological conditions, medically and otherwise.

It'd be like saying dentistry isn't a science, but we should treat cavities medically. Don't make sense.
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If psychology solely relied on studying physiological conditions as a branch of medicine or physiology, then you might have a point. Unfortunately psychology is little more than a modern form of philosophy that applies loose scientific method to spurious studies.

Anyway, study of schizophrenia in terms of physiology and medicine probably falls under the umbrella of neurology or psychiatry.
 
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