Oh those progressive Liberals!

[Gato_Solo]

I chose it because I feel once it is born it is now human. It wasnt particularly aribitrary. As said I dont like death. That should be apparent in posts on war and the like. Thus I would rather a choice other than death be considered first.

But that's exactly what it is, freako. Arbitrary. When abortion was first legalized, you couldn't get one past the first tri-mester. Now we're talking partial-birth abortions and euthanizing newborns, and you don't think that's arbitrary? There are now only 2 choices, freako...life, or death. You decide. Thumbs up, or thumbs down. No adoptions, and no orphanages. No easy way out.

 

[freako104]

then life. I told you that I would consider the adoption before abortion

 

[Gato_Solo]

then life. I told you that I would consider the adoption before abortion

So now you just put that child into the hands of the two people that wanted him/her dead in the first place. Nice choice. Instead of a relatively painless death, you have condemned this child to a life of hell with parents who do not love him/her.

 

[Professur]

I chose it because I feel once it is born it is now human. It wasnt particularly aribitrary. As said I dont like death. That should be apparent in posts on war and the like. Thus I would rather a choice other than death be considered first.

Freak. I'm trying to understand your position. Truely, I am. But please reread what you just posted. "I chose it" "I feel". You're making life and death choices for children. Not cell clusters, or fetuses, or infants. Children. Based on nothing but opinions and feelings.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Freak. I'm trying to understand your position. Truely, I am. But please reread what you just posted. "I chose it" "I feel". You're making life and death choices for children. Not cell clusters, or fetuses, or infants. Children. Based on nothing but opinions and feelings.

Do you think he figured out that this is a no-win situation?

 

[Gonz]

I feel once it is born it is now human.

It wasn't human when the HUMAN sperm & the HUMAN egg met, joined & began dividing in the HUMAM incubator, thus growing a person.

 

[Professur]

Do you think he figured out that this is a no-win situation?

I dunno. I get so tired of banging people's heads against the wall. When are they gonna see that scientifically, there's no justification for any of this. It's all people spinning arbitrary divisions out of nothing to justify doing what they already want to do. Can't they see that that kind of thinking is what kept people believing the world was flat long after they knew it wasn't???

 

[Gato_Solo]

I dunno. I get so tired of banging people's heads against the wall. When are they gonna see that scientifically, there's no justification for any of this. It's all people spinning arbitrary divisions out of nothing to justify doing what they already want to do. Can't they see that that kind of thinking is what kept people believing the world was flat long after they knew it wasn't???

Hell...why believe in tomorrow, when we can't even cope with today?

 

[MrBishop]

No. Not 'nuff said? Stan. Not hardly.


I've a cousin. Major kidney damage. Wasn't supposed to live past 6. He's adopted, btw. My aunt got him, because he wasn't supposed to survive. She was fairly low on the list, because of her age.

Well, Bish. You met the little cunt. Did he look dead to you? unhealthy? In pain? He's well into his 20's now. Still on treatments, on his own partly working kidneys.

Well, with this new law that you're so fucking happy about, his birth mother would just have had him put down. Does that make it any more clear to you?

Nope... try reducing the scale to 6 days or 3 weeks. Then make the point you're trying to make. There's a huge difference between kidney damage which can be controlled through dialasis and brain damage from bleeding and convulsions and diseases where a child could only survive on life support for the rest of its life, such as severe cases of spina bifida and epidermosis bullosa, a rare blistering illness.

We are talking about incureable and fatal illnesses and conditions...not operable and treateable illnesses.

btw...my cousin Annie lived with Kidney disease for 14 years waiting for a transplant...going through dialisis weekly from the day she was born. She died. She looked like an 8 year old because of the damage to her system. I was a pallbearer...she was very light, but the weight was more than my shoulders could bear.

Here's one back at you. One of your kids had Colic...can't remember which one but I believe that it was v2.

Your baby is crying all the time, in pain all the time...the crying and screaching is grating on the nerves ain't it...but it's just Colic..it'll go away and its not life threatening.

Same child, still screaming all the time, still in pain all the time...but this time its because of a birth defect...one that'll kill him/her within a few short days/weeks. There's SFA that you can do. There's SFA that the Doctors can do...you can fly to the top clinics in the world and there's still SFA that can be done. Your kid will be in pain for their whole life...mercifully short.

Do you stand bye and watch your son/daughter crying in pain day in and day out? Their pain is evident...they only sleep when they pass out from the pain-killers or from sheer exhaustion..only to wake up again after 30-40 minutes and start screaming again. Their sleep is disturbed by whining and tossing abouts. You KNOW that they'll be dead soon...

Do you wait for them to die or do you end their suffering? There is NO CHANCE OF THEM SURVIVING... can you live with their pain?

Personally... I would do anything to take my child's pain unto myself. Its very fresh in my mind...that pain. The feeling of helplessness. The doctors asked about surgery...I signed the papers. The doctors recommended that my son stay in the hospital for 1-2 weeks...I slept on the floor next to his bed. The doctors told me that he needed a CT-scan and I signed the papers...all to make him better.

I'm damn sure that you'd do the same.

Now...really think about it. Would you let your newborn child suffer for a few days/weeks and die in pain just to prove your fine morals about euthanasia?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Personally... I would do anything to take my child's pain unto myself. Its very fresh in my mind...that pain. The feeling of helplessness. The doctors asked about surgery...I signed the papers. The doctors recommended that my son stay in the hospital for 1-2 weeks...I slept on the floor next to his bed. The doctors told me that he needed a CT-scan and I signed the papers...all to make him better.

I'm damn sure that you'd do the same.

Now...really think about it. Would you let your newborn child suffer for a few days/weeks and die in pain just to prove your fine morals about euthanasia?

So...would you sign the papers, knowing that your child would be killed? Please make careful reference of the last word, because that's what we're talking about. Killing a baby. Not a 'fetus'. Not a 'clump of cells', and not a partially born fetus. We're talking a living, breathing, human being. Not somebody elses child. Yours, mine, Prof's, or even freako's. You have to decide, right now, if your child lives, or dies. Then you have to live with the guilt, one way, or another.

 

[Gonz]

Hey Prof...lunacy abounds.

Euthanasia, for me, became a moot point the day I read about Stephen Hawkings. He personifies the very reason against it.

 

[Professur]

Personally... I would do anything to take my child's pain unto myself. Its very fresh in my mind...that pain. The feeling of helplessness. The doctors asked about surgery...I signed the papers. The doctors recommended that my son stay in the hospital for 1-2 weeks...I slept on the floor next to his bed. The doctors told me that he needed a CT-scan and I signed the papers...all to make him better.

Yes, you did everything the doctors told you to do, didn't you?

 

[MrBishop]

Bishy stop and thunk for a sec.
M'Kay?
duh doctors and by extension the state in a socialistic medical setting have the control over the dispensation of medical care.

So...

They come to the customer and say:
Yer wee tot ain't gonna make it. We can put it down for you. Hey maybe I don't know nuthin' but even here with our Govt. insurance Medicare denied my Mom care when she was terminally ill with cancer.
Hey of course I understand that but don't fool yourself thinking that if the parents want the State to spend zillions on a lost cause that they will.

Here if your paying your playing the folks with dah bucks can get whatever they want. There because the Govt. runs it your taking what their givin' or we can kill your Kid\spouse\Parent for ya!

Yep this is merely a logical extension of the nanny State!

So it is the States choice whether or not they will give ya the care not yours.
What recourse do you have?

Only in America....Up here, you want your kid treated, they treat him/her...and you don't get a bill at the end. They don't refuse you and they can't force you to go one way or the other because your insurance company has made you their bitch. They can't turn you away either...your Mom would've been treated until she either got well or died.

It's
This is what's wrong with your child
This is what we can do to help your child
This is the likely chances of survival
so...what do you want us to do?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Yes, you did everything the doctors told you to do, didn't you?

I'm trying not to make this too personal, but can see Bish had one extremely difficult decision. As much as I sympathize with him, I cannot see him signing his childs death warrant. No matter the pain. No matter the suffering. There is always something we like to call hope.

 

[MrBishop]

So...would you sign the papers, knowing that your child would be killed? Please make careful reference of the last word, because that's what we're talking about. Killing a baby. Not a 'fetus'. Not a 'clump of cells', and not a partially born fetus. We're talking a living, breathing, human being. Not somebody elses child. Yours, mine, Prof's, or even freako's. You have to decide, right now, if your child lives, or dies. Then you have to live with the guilt, one way, or another.

If I have to choose between him suffering and dying or him just dying...I'd pick the latter. I owe him that much and more. If BTW and only if there's nothing to be done about it.

 

[MrBishop]

Yes, you did everything the doctors told you to do, didn't you?

Stop being an idiot and answer the damn question!

You damn well know that YOU, me and everyone else on this damn board would do whatever possible to save their child.

 

[Gato_Solo]

If I have to choose between him suffering and dying or him just dying...I'd pick the latter. I owe him that much and more. If BTW and only if there's nothing to be done about it.

That's the whole point. Remember in Star Trek III, when Dr McCoy was talking about euthanizing his father? They found a cure for his father's disease 3 days later, and he had to live with that guilt for the rest of his life. Not to make the situation look either rosy, or black, I don't think I could sign that. Whether they could do something, or not. It has nothing to do with morals, and everything to do with hope.

 

[Winky]

Wow some people don't get it!
or I really think they 'get it' but they still want to
stick to their position no matter what
(like most liberals)...

Real simple...

Your horse mis-steps and breaks it's leg ya shoot it.
Your Kid has something wrong with it, ya blast it.
There is no difference...

Yep it has been outlined in this thread by someone old enough to remember. When the judicially active court (not the people not the legislators) made abortion legal it was RESTRICTED solely to the first trimester now it's legal (thanks to the libbies) to do partial birth abortions. The slippery slope the balance of the scale has been tipped, the camels nose is in the tent. Why not whack the Kid in a 'post-birth' abortion?

If someone wants to off himself or herself it is still called suicide even if they are terminally ill. There is (was) a stigma attached. If someone 'assists" the person it's called "Legally assisted suicide" not MURDER.
Yep teenage pregnancy and screwin' around on your wife used to have a stigma attached. But hey two homosexuals getting married would still be unthinkable! lol Yeah even not being able to expose children to the declaration of independence is prohibited. Oh there was a time not to long ago that such things wouldn't be thought of as socially acceptable Thanks alot Libbies thanks alot.

 

[MrBishop]

Winky...you've got to remeber that you're talking to someone who doesn't like abortion. Early, late, whatever. Especially if it's just for conveniences sake.

We're not talking about killing your kid off for conveniences sake...

Get off your slippery slope...you're heading in the wrong direction.

 

[Gato_Solo]

That's the whole point. Remember in Star Trek III, when Dr McCoy was talking about euthanizing his father? They found a cure for his father's disease 3 days later, and he had to live with that guilt for the rest of his life. Not to make the situation look either rosy, or black, I don't think I could sign that. Whether they could do something, or not. It has nothing to do with morals, and everything to do with hope.

I've quoted myself just so's you'll see this, Bish. We don't know if a cure for whatever is happening is coming tomorrow. I think I owe my child that much.