OK so the camels are coming home to roost?

[Bobby Hogg]

Arm the French population and let em fight it out!

no wait they frenchies are pansies and would lose AGAIN heh heh

The USA hasn't fought a modern war on its own doorstep.

The 9/11 attacks seemingly have the American people cowering in panic, if your government and media are to be believed.

It's easy to be snide about the French in the World Wars, but their country was the battleground, not yours.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Those 'ghettos', as you call them, didn't become that way until after the local, non-immigrant population left to get away from the new people.

Except that poor white French people still live there. They are predominantly immigrant areas, however no one can blame an ordinary French family for wanting to be upwardly mobile and to go to an area where they will have greater opportunity.

Guess that one sailed over your head. I'll try one more time...

The crime rate goes up when the property values go down. This is a fact.
The property rates go down when people value their property less...ie the first black family moves into the neighborhood.
The first family to leave will sell their property for less than market value simply to get away from the black family...As a result, an even poorer family now moves in, causing another family to sell short...etc, etc, etc...so how is this the governments fault? The poor people moved there because it was cheaper. The moderate families moved out, out of either fear or prejudice or both. This is not the fault of the government. It's the fault of the people who lived there originally being intolerant.

You're assuming an innate racism. Unfortunately, the same effect can be seen in other countries, such as Ireland where the influx of coloured people into a city like Dublin is fairly recent, but city planning aimed at shunting the impoverished into areas of cheap housing and council estates away from the inner city was a clear government objective. You cannot blame innate racism for the formation of "favelas" there, because the people were white.

And we all know what a voice of reason he is.

Exactly.

 

[MrBishop]

Why must you assume self-protection is vigilantism? Arming myself for the protection of my family, is hardly hunting down the muslim neighbor kid.

Arming yourself, calling your neighbours together and walking the streets looking for potential rioters or troublemakeers and taking the law into your own hands isn't self-defence...it's vigilantism.

Arming yourself and shooting at anybody who gets close to your car, whether or not they have a molotov cocktail isn't self defence.

Arming yourself and shooting at anyone who tries to break in IS self-defence.

The moment that you go out and look for trouble, you're not being defensive anymore..you're being a vigilante.

 

[Gonz]

Arming yourself, calling your neighbours together and walking the streets looking for potential rioters or troublemakeers and taking the law into your own hands isn't self-defence...it's vigilantism.

I'll be sure to alert the Neighborhood Watch Organizers. Taking care of what is yours is no longer acceptable.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Except that poor white French people still live there. They are predominantly immigrant areas, however no one can blame an ordinary French family for wanting to be upwardly mobile and to go to an area where they will have greater opportunity.

Yes. I can, and do. The French always prided themselves on their ability to assimilate other cultures into their own, and now we see that it was just lip service.

You're assuming an innate racism.

You're damned straight. It always comes down to that, in the end, as most Europeans are racist. They just trip over themselves claiming the opposite.

Unfortunately, the same effect can be seen in other countries, such as Ireland where the influx of coloured people into a city like Dublin is fairly recent, but city planning aimed at shunting the impoverished into areas of cheap housing and council estates away from the inner city was a clear government objective. You cannot blame innate racism for the formation of "favelas" there, because the people were white.

Then I guess those governments over in the olde country are just overflowing with minorities, right? Europeans need to embrace their neighbors, instead of trying to force them into what will soon be slums. If you're more comfortable believing that it's the governments fault, however, go ahead. It's easier to place blame on a group than an individual, right?

 

[MrBishop]

I'll be sure to alert the Neighborhood Watch Organizers. Taking care of what is yours is no longer acceptable.

"not through vigilantism, but simply through a willingness to look out for suspicious activity in their neighborhood, and report that activity to law enforcement and to each other."

Somehow Neighbourhood Watch's statement and what I'm getting from 'banding together to protect our neighbourhoods doesn't strike me as the same... I don't think that the french bands will be picking up their phones and hitting the equivalent of 911 and waiting for the cops to show up.

The neighbourhood watch thing, we do here...just 'cause we're neighbours. No special groups.

 

[Gonz]

War is hell.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Yes. I can, and do. The French always prided themselves on their ability to assimilate other cultures into their own, and now we see that it was just lip service.

Did the LA riots prove that same point in the USA? Or the Cincinatti riots?

You're damned straight. It always comes down to that, in the end, as most Europeans are racist. They just trip over themselves claiming the opposite.

Who tries to claim the opposite? Europe has the same problems with racism that the US does, no one would ever dare claim differently because the examples are often so public (racist chanting at football matches, for example, the rise of far right political groups).

Then I guess those governments over in the olde country are just overflowing with minorities, right? Europeans need to embrace their neighbors, instead of trying to force them into what will soon be slums. If you're more comfortable believing that it's the governments fault, however, go ahead. It's easier to place blame on a group than an individual, right?

What are you talking about? Olde country?

I said it was government policy to drive the poor into slum areas in Dublin to reclaim the inner city for the middle class and the rich, and the tourists. Since nearly everyone was white, you cannot blame an innate racism for the shift. No problems were solved, they were merely moved around.

 

[chcr]

It always comes down to that, in the end, as most Europeans are racist. They just trip over themselves claiming the opposite.

That's a point a lot of people miss. I would have said most people are racist. At least to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[Gonz]

Well now, even Arabs blame Islam.

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates -- France's riots have set off a round of troubled debate across the Arab world: Most here blame a failure to offer opportunity to immigrants, but others see a more ominous clash of cultures over Islam.

Washington POst

 

[Gato_Solo]

Did the LA riots prove that same point in the USA? Or the Cincinatti riots?

We, in the US, have never tried to hide those things. We admit we have problems, and sometimes we even try to solve them.

Who tries to claim the opposite? Europe has the same problems with racism that the US does, no one would ever dare claim differently because the examples are often so public (racist chanting at football matches, for example, the rise of far right political groups).

Which wasn't even shown on international TV. Not too many people outside of those stadiums knew about the bananas and monkey chants until Bryant Gumble showed it on HBO Inside Sports...a US channel, BTW.

What are you talking about? Olde country?

Europe. Do try to keep up...

I said it was government policy to drive the poor into slum areas in Dublin to reclaim the inner city for the middle class and the rich, and the tourists. Since nearly everyone was white, you cannot blame an innate racism for the shift. No problems were solved, they were merely moved around.

A problem which I called Gentrification...so whats your point? I was talking about the way people leave an area when one of "those people" move in, and you're talking urban renewal. I stand by my statement because I've seen it happen time and time again. Your statement, while factually true, has nothing to do with the problem now facing Europe. It's a race problem, not an econimic one...

 

[Bobby Hogg]

We, in the US, have never tried to hide those things. We admit we have problems, and sometimes we even try to solve them.

Of course you don't.

Which wasn't even shown on international TV. Not too many people outside of those stadiums knew about the bananas and monkey chants until Bryant Gumble showed it on HBO Inside Sports...a US channel, BTW.

That's absolute fucking bollocks (if people will excuse me for saying so). I watch the matches myself, I see it going on. I'm not American, I don't live in the USA, I don't watch American TV.

Considering the coverage football recieves in Europe, it's absolutely ludicrous to suggest very few outside the stadiums know about it.

Europe. Do try to keep up...

I don't get the "Olde country" reference because it makes no sense. I still don't get the reference. To whom is it directed? For what purpose?

A problem which I called Gentrification...so whats your point? I was talking about the way people leave an area when one of "those people" move in, and you're talking urban renewal. I stand by my statement because I've seen it happen time and time again. Your statement, while factually true, has nothing to do with the problem now facing Europe. It's a race problem, not an econimic one...

It's an economic problem with a racial subtext. Like the conflict in Northern Ireland is a political dispute with a religious subtext. People often make the mistake of failing to look at the root cause of a dispute.

Certainly Europe has its problems with knowing how to accomodate or behave toward Muslims, but that is nothing new. It has become more complicated or pressing with the spectre of Islamic terrorism now clouding everything, and a paranoia towards Muslims growing.

This doesn't change the fact that suggesting the French riots are solely down to racial or religious differences would completely miss the economic context. These are poor people getting angry, and this is nothing new whatsoever. It happens all around the world and has happened throughout history.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Of course you don't.

So you never see anything on the news about Affirmative Action? How about the history of the US from the 1960's to today? Bah. It's really getting boring watching your anti-US tirades when you have no facts to back any of them up...just rumors and innuendo.

That's absolute fucking bollocks (if people will excuse me for saying so). I watch the matches myself, I see it going on. I'm not American, I don't live in the USA, I don't watch American TV.

Considering the coverage football recieves in Europe, it's absolutely ludicrous to suggest very few outside the stadiums know about it.

I hadn't until I saw it with my own eyes. We had our problems like that in the 1950's, with Jackie Robinson, but most of that has faded into the background, and we call our idiots idiots. People even get fired over racial comments...

I don't get the "Olde country" reference because it makes no sense. I still don't get the reference. To whom is it directed? For what purpose?

I already explained it once, and will no longer repeat myself for your benefit.

It's an economic problem with a racial subtext. Like the conflict in Northern Ireland is a political dispute with a religious subtext. People often make the mistake of failing to look at the root cause of a dispute.

The root cause is racism in this case. Why you fail to see that is beyond me. If those people were white, and spoke French, we wouldn't be having this problem. I'm sure there are poor French just as there are poor from every country. Economics is secondary. By denying it, you only make your argument weaker.

Certainly Europe has its problems with knowing how to accomodate or behave toward Muslims, but that is nothing new. It has become more complicated or pressing with the spectre of Islamic terrorism now clouding everything, and a paranoia towards Muslims growing.

This doesn't change the fact that suggesting the French riots are solely down to racial or religious differences would completely miss the economic context. These are poor people getting angry, and this is nothing new whatsoever. It happens all around the world and has happened throughout history.

Poor lad...you'll never understand.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

So you never see anything on the news about Affirmative Action? How about the history of the US from the 1960's to today? Bah. It's really getting boring watching your anti-US tirades when you have no facts to back any of them up...just rumors and innuendo.

I'm not anti-US, nor am I making anti-US tirades. It's not me making statements such as "most Europeans are racist." I'm attempting to draw a comparison between poor minorities in France and those in the country of which many of the posters here reside because people seem to be gloating over the French problems as if they themselves are immune.

I would say the USA has done what should have been expected of them as a liberated democracy to give black people parity in the eyes of law in the nation. No disputing that. However, I would dispute that black people have overall parity in American society.

I hadn't until I saw it with my own eyes. We had our problems like that in the 1950's, with Jackie Robinson, but most of that has faded into the background, and we call our idiots idiots. People even get fired over racial comments...

You are American, football (soccer) isn't big over there. It's religion here. Italian football clubs have serious problems with far right and left wing groups using their football grounds as battle areas. Spanish clubs have serious problems with racist chanting and abuse of coloured players. Eastern European sides are regularly punished for their racist chanting against coloured players in European matches.

Israel has also come under attack because of widespread racist chanting at its soccer matches of black African players and Arab Israelis.

The root cause is racism in this case. Why you fail to see that is beyond me. If those people were white, and spoke French, we wouldn't be having this problem. I'm sure there are poor French just as there are poor from every country. Economics is secondary. By denying it, you only make your argument weaker.

Did you ever learn about the French revolution in history? That stemmed from poor white French people uprising against the aristocracy.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I'm not anti-US, nor am I making anti-US tirades. It's not me making statements such as "most Europeans are racist." I'm attempting to draw a comparison between poor minorities in France and those in the country of which many of the posters here reside because people seem to be gloating over the French problems as if they themselves are immune.

And who's gloating? I merely point out to you lot on the other side of the pond that your backyard isn't squeaky clean, either.

I would say the USA has done what should have been expected of them as a liberated democracy to give black people parity in the eyes of law in the nation. No disputing that. However, I would dispute that black people have overall parity in American society.

I've had my brushes, but, by and large, I am seen for my accomplishments more than for my race.

You are American, football (soccer) isn't big over there. It's religion here. Italian football clubs have serious problems with far right and left wing groups using their football grounds as battle areas. Spanish clubs have serious problems with racist chanting and abuse of coloured players. Eastern European sides are regularly punished for their racist chanting against coloured players in European matches.

So...who coloured those players? Weren't they born that way? Yep...sounds like the 50's to me...

Israel has also come under attack because of widespread racist chanting at its soccer matches of black African players and Arab Israelis.

Ahh...deflecting blame. Nice try, but we're not talking about Israel. We're talking about France. If you pick one fight at a time, you're much more likely to win.

Did you ever learn about the French revolution in history? That stemmed from poor white French people uprising against the aristocracy.

And how much time passed before that revolution and after? I'd venture to say 100's of years, and I'd be correct. This has only been going on for approximately 60 years...your comparison sucks.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

And who's gloating? I merely point out to you lot on the other side of the pond that your backyard isn't squeaky clean, either.

I never said it was. Would never, ever claim it. The treatment of immigrants in my country utterly disgusts me. The attacks on immigrants carried out are despicable and the politicians in my country do not do enough to prevent them.

Anyone who does claim Europe experiences no racism is blind.

I've had my brushes, but, by and large, I am seen for my accomplishments more than for my race.

Good. Everyone deserves to be.

Once upon a time things were much the same for Catholics in Northern Ireland as they were in the USA for black people. Our civil rights movement took the impetus from the civil rights movement in the USA. I understand how far both movements have come. I also understand that some attitudes still linger about the establishment and they'll take some time to die out.

So...who coloured those players? Weren't they born that way? Yep...sounds like the 50's to me...

Soccer unfortunately attracts these elements because of the anonymity afforded by large stadiums. Mainland Europe needs to take its example from Britain by ruthlessly stamping hooliganism and racism out of its stadiums.

But that's only a single example. Other examples would be the racist attacks I mentioned that occur in my country, the desecration of Muslim graves recently carried out in Birmingham, England and the race riots experienced in Northwest England in recent years, far right wing groups gaining momentum in various European elections etc.

Ahh...deflecting blame. Nice try, but we're not talking about Israel. We're talking about France. If you pick one fight at a time, you're much more likely to win.

I'm not deflecting blame. Israel takes part in European competition, their problems are documented as part of footballs shameful racism problem.

And how much time passed before that revolution and after? I'd venture to say 100's of years, and I'd be correct. This has only been going on for approximately 60 years...your comparison sucks.

My comparison is valid. Poor people get angry, they fight, everyone is one part disgusted, one part bleeding heart, but very little changes. Some people are merely trying to hi-jack the dispute for their own agenda to emphasise a fundamental religious or racial dispute.

 

[Gato_Solo]

My comparison is valid. Poor people get angry, they fight, everyone is one part disgusted, one part bleeding heart, but very little changes. Some people are merely trying to hi-jack the dispute for their own agenda to emphasise a fundamental religious or racial dispute.

But that's exactly what it is! It's 99% racial, and, maybe, 1% economic. They are poor because nobody will hire them for a decent wage. Noone will hire them because they are minorities. If this wasn't constantly focused upon by the masses (race), then the economic situation would improve. Look what happened to the majority of the poor whites when the minorities started arriving...they moved up in the 'food chain'. Then the minorities are kept down because you can tell just by looking that they aren't 'true' French...

 

[Bobby Hogg]

But that's exactly what it is! It's 99% racial, and, maybe, 1% economic. They are poor because nobody will hire them for a decent wage. Noone will hire them because they are minorities. If this wasn't constantly focused upon by the masses (race), then the economic situation would improve. Look what happened to the majority of the poor whites when the minorities started arriving...they moved up in the 'food chain'. Then the minorities are kept down because you can tell just by looking that they aren't 'true' French...

Or no one is hiring them because they aren't necessarily qualified. They are coming from a poor nation as poor people and find that coming to France doesn't automatically rectify that situation.

For me to deny that no racism goes on would be ludicrous, but again I go back to government policy of building purpose built towns to house the immigrants in and marginalising them in the suburbs has much to do with this.

The people in those areas are undoubtedly poor and under-privileged, but at the same time there are plenty of ethnic minorities who live and work in France in similar affluence to the 'true' French themselves. Immigrants make up a disproportionate amount of the poor because they arrive poor and settle in areas where opportunities to get out of the rut prove scarce.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Or no one is hiring them because they aren't necessarily qualified. They are coming from a poor nation as poor people and find that coming to France doesn't automatically rectify that situation.

But then, when they are snubbed by the very people who, not so long ago, invited them in, you have a recipe for disaster.

For me to deny that no racism goes on would be ludicrous, but again I go back to government policy of building purpose built towns to house the immigrants in and marginalising them in the suburbs has much to do with this.

Once again you blame the anomalous entity rather than the true culprits...

The people in those areas are undoubtedly poor and under-privileged, but at the same time there are plenty of ethnic minorities who live and work in France in similar affluence to the 'true' French themselves. Immigrants make up a disproportionate amount of the poor because they arrive poor and settle in areas where opportunities to get out of the rut prove scarce.

Now you're being condescending towards the immigrants. They settle where they can afford to, with the hope that they can make a better life for themselves. When that comes face to face with the racism/xenophobia, you get this result...

 

[Bobby Hogg]

I'm not being condescending, that is simply a statement of fact. Saying "they settle where they can afford to" is a different way of making the same point.

Would you deny there are immigrants and ethnic minorities who are part of the more affluent sections of French society?

People in rural areas of France are also extremely impoverished.