Should the US military gaurd the Mexican border?

Should the US military gaurd the Mexican border?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 100.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9
HeXp£Øi± said:
"the mexicans that go to the USA take the jobs that many of you don't want"

First off i think that's an exaggeration.
Second, How does it hurt our economy? It hurts unions, when you can hire somebody for ten bucks a day why would you want to hire legal? Second it keeps the minimum wage supressed. The working man is central to this country and that's who it hurts. On top of that, they don't pay taxes like the rest of us and on top of that we pay for their children to go to school and use other resources without paying their way. It hurts.

With the exception of taxes and use of public resources, I fail to see anything wrong with this.

It hurts unions? Excellent. With very few exceptions, labor unions are anachronisms which stimy business and economic growth.

It keeps the minimum wage suppressed? OK by me. That also helps keep inflation in check.

Now, not paying for and still using tax-supported resources, that's an issue.
 
I don't know Solo, you seem to have a lot of free time on your hands. Sorry if that was a little insulting, but i was rather insulted by the "I think you have no idea what you're talking about" statement. Maybe what i should have said was 'if we're not preoccupied with a war'. Obviosly this is something that would require large amounts of change within the military. But the fact is this is America and and if the majority wanted this, then it could happen.This isn't an idea i pulled out of thin air. This issue has been talked about for years now. It's the American public majority that ultimately decides what the military will and will not do. The Tail doesn't wag the dog. Granted this scenerio isn't likely to occur, but i still see it as a plausible one.
 
You can probably think of being in the millitary as a "9-5" type of deal or shift work. You don't work 24/7. Some even get weekends off.
 
HeXp£Øi± said:
I don't know Solo, you seem to have a lot of free time on your hands.

Depends on the day. Some days I can let the shift run itself, and other days, like today, I work for most of the day. I'm also on tap for TDY's all the time for up to 90 days at a stretch. It's called 'Peacekeeping duty'.
 
Unfortunately, I'm a little more familiar with the process of emmigrating to the US than I care to be. I can tell you this, its not easy. Its not just Mexicans that have problems, its everyone!!! Think about it. How many people in the world do you think want to move here? I'm guessing a lot more than the US economy can absorb each year, and I think most would agree. I don't worry too much about labor unions myself. I too think they need to be done away with, but thats another issue. Most economist would view further erosion of labor unions as good, that about my only comment on that issue.

One thing to note though. You can probably expect it to become a hell of a lot easier to move here, and get US citizenship, and the whole lot. The fact is, demographic are gonna necessitate a more lax policy on immigration. I have lots of friends, from all around the world, and lots of them would like to move here, but ya know what, its not easy for any of them, even for the ones currently living here under a student visa. Its going to get easier though, it SHOULD at least, as we have fewer and fewer people working to support the retired baby boomers in the future.

Well, needless to say, I spoke to several attorney friends of mine in hopes to find some loophole to the whole immigration matter, for my wife that is. Well, she wasn't my wife then, I guess I should clarify that. The overwhelming response from EVERYONE i spoke to was "get married." Now we weren't in any hurry for this step, but US immigration policy forced it, at least if we wanted to be together. So, please, don't think Mexico is singled out, its difficult for everyone!!! The US is a big country, but not so big as to accomadate all the people who might wish to move here each year. I would disagree with some of the statements made earlier in this thread too. I'm refering to it being easy if you are "the right kind of person" with an education, and all that. Its important, but still, its not enough in MOST cases. Sure, there is the diversity lottery, and being educated gives you a hell of a lot more chance than someone who is not, but even still, the probablity of being selected is quite low, extremely low, so low its not worth the price of trying in most cases. The term lottery is actually quite appropriate!!!

Its not nearly as easy as people assume it is. You don't realize this of course until you are in a position when you NEED to get to the State or you need to get someone else here. I found out exactly how difficult it is. Even if you use the marriage route its a pain in the ass!!! And clearly, most people won't even have this as an option.

As far as guarding the borders, well, I don't think its possible to be honest. Its a pretty large border. Its hardly worth the effort. I am a little opposed to using tax payers money to fund social/public services for illegals, but I don't expect its gonna change any time soon. Our best hope is to help raise Mexico's overall standard of living to be on par with our own. Thats the best way to "guard our borders," at least in my opinion. Nafta should have been a step in the right direction in that respect, at least in theory. Ok, its not gonna happen over night, so I guess we will have to live with the way things are. We have been fine until now, so I guess it will be fine in the future. Its not exactly overwhelming us, but it is diverting funds that could be used for Americans.
 
Hex said:
But the fact is this is America and and if the majority wanted this, then it could happen.

That is why we have a Constitution and laws. Some thnigs, hell, many things, the majority wants are not good for the country. This, while it sounds benign enough & quite plausible, is an example. In 20, 50, 100 years somebody would look back & wonder what the hell we were thinking. The potential problems far outweigh the probable outcome.
 
HeXp£Øi± said:
unc, that's why i said(if they're not doing anything else)

Luis G, we can only let so many people in at once. If we didn't stop the flood we'd be overrun by a billion immigrants and then we'd be no better off then those poorer countries. Instead we hand out hundreds of billions of dollars to other countries who never pay us back and encourage them to learn from our example. And we've done well. At the turn of the century there was a handful of democratic capitalist nations. Now, a hundred years later the majority of the worlds countries have followed our example. That's absolutely amazing. Nothing like that has ever happened before. Give us another hundred years and the rest of the world will be wealthy to.

OK, I haven't read the whole htread but this is NOT true. The rich countries are continuously getting rich at the other countries expenses. If we continues with this globalized, capitalist society where all the moeny is in the financial market rather than the hands of the poor people in 3rd world countries the number of poor people will not decrease but it will actually INCREASE!

I JUST got out of a class where we discuss this, follow the treands, etc. We watched a video on this EXACT subject tongiht.
 
Nixy, did your socialism class also discuss the possibility of turning those 3rd world dictatorships into democratic, capitalist, free-market economies & letting the people work themselves into wealth?

Prime example-in, about 1984 $50,000. in US funds was in the top 10% of income earners. By 1999, it was in the top 25%. Why? We (the worker) earned ourselves a raise.
 
Funny i never would have thought that the US military would have so much trouble protecting the country from intruders. Do you think other more secure nations around the globe don't do this affectively already? It's simple, up the recrutment and begin the process using other countries say Israels, infrastructure model.
 
Israel has 6 million people in 20,000 sqaure miles & is surrounderd by enemies. The US has 280,000,000 in 9.6 million square miles, bordered on 2 sides by oceans & 2 sides by allies. Huge difference. Also, when a military is given authority over the cilvilian population & their laws, at some point, a coup is expected. Leaders, especially those with vast quantities of weapons, are soon to be power hungry. When the military is seperate from the political & civilian powerbases, the chances are greatly reduced of a hostile takeover. Look at Germany in 1929 & again in 1939 for a prime example.
 
All do respect Gonz i thnk you're just a little paranoid. The only portion of the border this discussion concerns is the southern part. The military works among us already anyway. A bunch of marines just built a house for my neighbor. There was no problems there. They didn't confiscate the house. What's this talk about a coup? Are they going to take over Texas? I'm not talking about a million troops packing claymore mines and m16s. Who needs vast quantities of weapons? I'm talking about maybe 100,000 maximum spread out over a couple thousand miles and doing a type of guard duty. A coup is possible but not plausible in my loud but humble opinion. One thing i am getting from this debate however is that it would probably be easier to get the boarder patrol and immigration budget tripled, than it would be to convince congress that the military needs to be on the border.
 
The US has one of the largest amounts of border to patrol. Furthermore, its the most attractive country for immigrants. Its no surprise that some people are gonna get through. It's gonna happen no matter what you do!!! Thats life.

Nixy, I see your concern, but capital accumulation is the key to building wealth In fact, they are one in the same. A poor country with no capital, no money in the financial markets, will not allow people to earn more income, and thus have a better standard of living. Think about it for a moment. When we look at countries, and whether they are rich or poor, we look at GDP per capita. Well, what happens to the GDP/population if there is a sudden rise in US population?

GDP per capital = GDP / population (I know, the term doesn't need explainatin, but nevertheless)



Why do you think China adopted the one child policy? Why do you think China and India are so poor? What do you think they are doing to change it? Population control is just as important as overall economic growth, at least when you are concerned with the individual, their income, and their standard of living. Low population growth rates are just as important as high economic growth when it comes to standard of living and the individual. Simply giving money to poor countries doesn't help then, not in the end. Ok, it may help them eat for one year maybe, but what about the next, and the one after that? No, there must be capital accumulation, financial markets, investments in capital, and ONLY THEN will individual wages rise (assuming of course the population growth rate is lower than the growth in the economy, if population growth exceeds economic growth, even if the economic growth is huge, living standards will fall). Further, if we send all our "excess" funds abroad to help others, rather than focusing on investment in capital at home, OUR LIVING STANDARD WILL FALL. Remember, the worker (in theory at least) is paid the marginal product of his labor. Now, if an American worker has an assembly line in a factory to work on, his marginal product of labor is much higher than some poor child rolling bede cigarettes by hand in India for example. Dont' you think? Therefore, the American, in this example lets say an auto worker, is earning much much more than the cigarette roller in India. Now, lets say they build a factory in India, with machines for the child workers to run to make say 100,000 cigarettes instead of the few hundred he/she made rolling them by hand. Don't you think he or she would earn more money? This should give you the idea of how building wealth and capital accumulation helps workers in a country. Productivity rises, GDP rises, and assuming population growth is zero, or close to it (in this case, its probably not) then the standard of living for the whole economy improves. Remember, the money multiplier and all that good stuff? Well, that means a relatively small improvement is going to have a rather large effect. The 10 year old bede roller is gonna go buy something, then who ever sold something to the bede roller is gonna make a profit, and spend that, and then the person at the other end is gonna make a profit, and spend that etc etc. You know, the money multiplier. Ok, so now its possible for futher captial accumulation, and eventually more capital is put in place, more workers become more productive, and the trend continues until less developed countries reach parity with the developed nations. This is why its GOOD that we invest directly in foreign countries, and "exploit" their low labor costs. It helps them, just not as quickly as those on the left would like it to work. Everything takes time!!! Locals learn from the example of foreign companies, they learn they can make more profits by implementing capital intensive production techniques, and follow our example. Further, they learn our techniques by example, further benefiting these countries.

Actually, its not the US you have to blame, or other developed counties, but rather the leaders of these countries that don't wish to follow the ONLY model that works!!! The USSR failed, their model was flawed, all other models are showing signs of weakness, and ONLY the competitive free market model is showing long-run viability. Look at Japan, and the "Asian Tigers" their state directed capitalism failed. Sure, it worked for a while, but eventually it was found not to be sustainable.

We are doing what we can! Believe it or now, we are. And, ironically, what helps the most, is what people on the left oppose the most!!! Simply giving money doesn't work, it doesn't set an example, it doesn't show the process of how its done or give an example that may be copied. Further, corruption in gov'ts tends to steal the money long before it gets to those who need it anyway!!!

Ok, enough econ 101 for today
 
HeXp£Øi± said:
All do respect Gonz i thnk you're just a little paranoid. The only portion of the border this discussion concerns is the southern part. The military works among us already anyway. A bunch of marines just built a house for my neighbor. There was no problems there. They didn't confiscate the house. What's this talk about a coup? Are they going to take over Texas? I'm not talking about a million troops packing claymore mines and m16s. Who needs vast quantities of weapons? I'm talking about maybe 100,000 maximum spread out over a couple thousand miles and doing a type of guard duty. A coup is possible but not plausible in my loud but humble opinion. One thing i am getting from this debate however is that it would probably be easier to get the boarder patrol and immigration budget tripled, than it would be to convince congress that the military needs to be on the border.

What you are describing is a voluntary act by the individual marines...not the marine corps. Back to your main statement...The military is not a police force. We are not trained to be police. The Border Patrol is a police force. Our main job is to kill people, and take over their territory. Not arrest them, guard them, or take them back to their homes.We (the military) are not the force you think we are. That's what I'm trying to tell you, and why I think you don't know what you're asking for. Why you felt offended the first time I said that, I really don't know.

BTW...What Gonz is saying is constitutionally correct. Our orders come from above (the elected officials), and we act only in the best interests of the US constitution.
 
:spam:

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just a little clarification, the US or the IMF does not give money to México, they lend it to us, and we pay every cent back plus interest.
 
isn't that the case with the IMF all the time? :confuse3:

they did the same to Russia...they didn't have to pay a few loans back though if i recall correctly...
 
Luis G said:
just a little clarification, the US or the IMF does not give money to México, they lend it to us, and we pay every cent back plus interest.
And that messes us up. Noooooobody eeeeever pays us back. Getting loan money back from Mexico just screws up the bookeeping something fierce. :D
 
yes, that's always the case, but in previous posts (hexploit's and rd's) the keyword was give instead of lend.
 
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