Should the US military gaurd the Mexican border?

Should the US military gaurd the Mexican border?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 100.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9
RD_151 said:
When we look at countries, and whether they are rich or poor, we look at GDP per capita. Well, what happens to the GDP/population if there is a sudden rise in US population?

GDP per capital = GDP / population (I know, the term doesn't need explainatin, but nevertheless)

<snip>

Ok, enough econ 101 for today

No, let's have a little more... Your argument above assumes that the person who comes into the country produces absolutely nothing. You are putting him in the denominator without adding the wealth he produces to the numerator. Yes, if he came here and simply went on welfare that would be true. That's not what typically happens, though. Immigrants work... that's why they come here.

Furthermore, just because the GDP per person in the country drops, doesn't mean that anyone's wealth was taken. Let's say the average yearly wage per adult in your family is $20k, and your sister marries a guy who only makes $15k. Did your salary suddenly drop just because the families average income dropped? No. The only way it would drop is if you had to contribute your money to his support.

When immigrants move to the US they have to have food, housing, clothing, transportation, etc. They have to buy these things, which means they add to the demand for goods. They work, which means they add to the amount of production. Unless they are being supported by our taxes, they can only consume as much as they produce. Therefore, their presence takes nothing away from us. If you're concerned about them going on welfare, then, imo, the solution is to end welfare.

Looking at the economy as a static amount of wealth that gets divided up among the people 'somehow' is a view that is endemic to socialism. It often affects conservatives as well, because the majority of them don't really understand capitalism.
 
I don't assume he or she produces nothing, I make the correct assumption, that as capital per worker falls, in aggregate, output per worker falls, thus income per worker falls. We are talking large numbers, not one or two people, I'm thinking in terms of millions, but still, even a few people make some difference at the margin. Do you reallly think 10 million people could move to the US and not have an impact, a negative impact on the economy? What about 300 million? What about 1 billion? If we had an open door policy, it COULD happen (in theory at least)!!! Do you think we would not be affected? Well, its like they always say, if it doesn't make sense with small numbers, use large ones, and soon the theory will make some sense!!!


Actually, the truth is, its the capital stock of a country / population is the issue. Sorry, I won't simplify things again. But I won't explain the whole model simply to state something either. Yes, income per capita MUST FALL, and yes, by most definitions it makes the US a poorer nation. We tend to define rich and poor nations by GDP per capita. Sorry, I didn't invent or choose the means with which we measure it.

So is china richer than Switzerland because it has more Gross Domestic Product? Are Chinese better off than Swiss? I hope you are seeing my point about now!!!

You are obviously arguing a different point though, that the person from abroad is made better off. I don't argue that!!! What it does do, is that it lowers growth of the economy, and thus makes the ECONOMY as a whole less wealthy (on a per capita basis of course). And for the lefties, that means less to redistribute now, and in the future!!!


Furthermore, you are assuming that there is no unemployment, and that one person finding a job doesn' displace another. There is a natural level of unemployment remember. Full employment doesn't exist!!! And increasing the number of low skilled people in an economy that has an excess of low-skilled workers already, and a shortage of high-skilled workers is going to increase unemployment, and probably the natural rate of unemployment as well (ok maybe we aren't short ANY workers right NOW, low-skilled or high-skilled, and that presents further problems, doesn't it). Well, higher unemployment probably means more resdistribution, and more redistribution means less is available for capital investment, and thus, depending on where the level of savings is, the capital stock of the nation will grow more slowly or decline, leaving EVERYONE worse off (in a macro sense of course)!!! Clearly, now you have not only the population side of things changing, but also capital investment is falling. So capital per workier = k/p is even smaller in the long-run than just the inital shock of chaning P would have been.

At the same time, if we only take the best and brightest from abroad, we are also hurting those economies from which they came. Clearly they could benefit from having more human capital at home!!! On the other hand, if nations send us their least educated, they are helping themselves, because now they have more capital per worker, and also more human capital per worker (human capital is an issue as well, but only if you have enough physical capital for these workers to take advantage of).

Ok, I don't want to argue this topic. If you don't like the "theory" feel free to research the "Solow Growth Model" on your own (google should turn up some good links for ya, I'm sure someone else can explain better than me, maybe Robert Solow himself), it will give you the basic idea (he won the nobel prize for this model and his research in this field). You can find newer models, but they are much more complex, and of course, aren't Nobel prize winning models.



Luis G,

I wasn't refering to Mexico in particular, if you will notice. If you look more closely, and if you were to make ANY assumption about what country I was refering to, it should have rather been INDIA. But I was speaking in general terms just to clarify!!!
 
unclehobart said:
And that messes us up. Noooooobody eeeeever pays us back. Getting loan money back from Mexico just screws up the bookeeping something fierce. :D

we pay on time, and if i recall correctly, president Zedillo once paid a big ammount of money months before the date established.

RD_151, i don't assume you were talking about Mexico, i just clarified how things are with Mexico and most countries in America. Argentina got a new time limit to pay their debt, but the debt remains. I'm sure the US has given money to other countries, i'm not arguing that.
 
you just contradicted yourself. paying ahead of time isnt the same as paying on time. yet another paperwork fiasco.
 
how does it hurt paying before the time limit?, you can start making money out of that money once it is paid back.
 
Yeah, but we're not expecting it. See, the US government is horrible about having money it doesn't expect to have. Mexico's paying on time probably initiated a widespread upgrade to the office chairs in all federal government buildings. It's odd, yes, but that's how it works.
 
PuterTutor said:
Yeah, but we're not expecting it. See, the US government is horrible about having money it doesn't expect to have. Mexico's paying on time probably initiated a widespread upgrade to the office chairs in all federal government buildings. It's odd, yes, but that's how it works.
more like a 30 million dollar, 5 year feasability study to determine the best chair available that will withstand god knows what, be pleasing to the eye, and yet be outdadted the second the study is concluded.
 
Shadowfax said:
you're only screwing yourself when paying before that...unless you pay interest :headbang:

we pay interest, just like the rest of the countries.
 
unclehobart,

Thats too bad, I liked your first assessment. I was really looking forward to my new chair :(
 
I thought i should correct this one item and then i'll surrender on this peticular debate.

What you are describing is a voluntary act by the individual marines...not the marine corps.

Actually it was a state run agency next door(Women In Safe Homes(w.i.s.h.)) and the military was acting on a grant of some type. But i don't know exactly how that worked.
 
related to the border, what do you guys think of the new immigration agreement that it's being negotiated right now?
 
Luis G,

I wasn't really thinking of Mexico and other more developed countries. I was actually thinking of the least developed countries. Mexico isn't doing too bad. Ok, its not the US or Switzerland, but its not SubSaharan Africa either. By "giving," I was thinking more along the lines of the LEAST developed countries, the ones for which we really dont' expect anything back, "loan" or "gift" for these countries its the same. Its the countries that can't even afford to feed their people that concern me the most. They are the BEST opportunities for investment, assuming a they have a stable gov't, and they have the most to gain from it as well.
 
oh, wait, they aren't the "best," but they have the lowest labor costs. Of course such countries are usually on the verge of civil war and in a state of constant chaos. Nevermind me, I'm not thinking properly today. I think its the dissapointment about my chair :(
 
Let me try to give you an idea of what the military is supposed to be like...

Picture an fireant mound. You have the queen, a few drones, millions of workers, and a few thousand soldiers. The soldiers are there to protect the ant-hill from other ants, and to sometimes go on raids and capture other ants to help the colony. Worker ants keep the integrity of the colony intact. Now. Take a stick and poke it into the mound. THAT is what the job of the military is. To defend the 'home territory' from outside threats. The integrity of the home-land is the regular 'worker' job.
 
We could, but Mexico is supposed to be our ally...

Except for Luis, who always says "malditos gringos". :D
 
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