The rest of the story

[Gonz]

Four in a row

 

[spike]

The Pilgrims were illegal immigrants.

 

[Gonz]

The Indians had immigration laws?

 

[spike]

Plymouth, Massachusetts - Archivists in the Massachusetts State Library announced the discovery of a legally binding contract dating from March of 1621 in which William Bradford, leader of the Pilgrims, and Chief Massasoit, leader of the Wampanoag tribe, entered into an agreement that clearly stipulated that the Pilgrims and any immigrants that followed them would only be allowed temporary residency as visiting workers during which time they could cut trees to build houses and till the land to plant crops. However, all Pilgrims and any immigrants who followed would only be permitted to stay for a period of ten years, after which they must return to their country of origin.

It is thought that William Bradford entered into this ironclad contract that limited the extent of their rights and length of residency because he was fearful that without the help of the Wampanoag tribe all of the Pilgrims would perish from cold and famine. For his part, Chief Massasoit took pity on the new arrivals and did not want to see them suffer, although he did not want them to stay any longer than was necessary.

Legal scholars who have studied the document state, without exception, that the agreement between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag tribe is binding and still enforceable to this day. Professor Lawrence Higgins of the Yale Law School said, "Chief Massasoit was very smart in his use of language. This is a superbly crafted contract that is sure to be upheld in court. Of course, this means that over 290 million Americans will now be classified by law as illegal immigrants and will be subject to immediate detention and deportation to their ancestral country of origin since only the Wampanoag tribe and other native Americans can be considered full citizens now that this document has emerged."

http://assimilatedpress.blogspot.com/2006/08/usa-flooded-with-290-million-illegal.html

 

[Gonz]

Alrighty then. See why some us are concerned now?

 

[catocom]

dating from March of 1621

and how was this date proven.....because it was written on the document?

 

[catocom]

OK then....
if we follow the logic...
The Pilgrims Took the land by force, so are we to allow the newly defined
ILLEGAL immigrants to do the same?

 

[Cerise]

Thanksgiving is about the guilt we should be feeling.....

From:
Deconstructing the Myths of “The First Thanksgiving"

Is it because as Americans we have a deep need to believe that the soil we live on and the country on which it is based was founded on integrity and cooperation? This belief would help contradict any feelings of guilt that could haunt us when we look at our role in more recent history in dealing with other indigenous peoples in other countries.....

http://www.oyate.org/resources/shortthanks.html

Myth #11: Thanksgiving is a happy time.

Fact: For many Indian people, “Thanksgiving” is a time of mourning, of remembering how a gift of generosity was rewarded by theft of land and seed corn, extermination of many from disease and gun, and near total destruction of many more from forced assimilation. As currently celebrated in this country, “Thanksgiving” is a bitter reminder of 500 years of betrayal returned for friendship.

 

[catocom]

Thanksgiving is about the guilt we should be feeling.....

not IMO
I personally haven't killed any indians, Actually I am part indian, on my grandmother's side.

I also haven't had any slaves, although my ancestors did.

IMO...
If we are going to pay for the sins of our fathers (so to speak), there's
not going to be many that Don't have to pay something.

We became a greater nation with the drafting of the constitution, and strive to get better all the time, or atleast that's the idea, or used to be.

We are what we are now (the USA) and dwelling on past transgression
(at least prior our births) only serves in a negative fashion, except to
learn from our (as a nation) mistakes, and not repeat them, or let them be repeated.

 

[Cerise]

The guilt is only the PC opinion:

 

[catocom]

I thought I kinda caught some facetiousness, but though I'd take the
opportunity to express my view.

 

[Gonz]

the 5th annual reminder...

eat well, enjoy family & friends & remember, if you ain't dead, you should be thankful.

 

[Gonz]

haven't we been here before?

 

[jimpeel]

Oh the irony

"We teach about Thanksgiving from a purely historical perspective, not from a religious perspective," said Charles Ridgell, St. Mary's County Public Schools curriculum and instruction director.

You want REAL irony? There it is.

Maybe he should now start working on changing the name of the parish.

Oh no, another religious connotation.

Maybe he should now start working on changing the word "parish" to "county".

I wonder if they teach about the Mayflower Compact in those schools.

 

[jimpeel]

Two quick questions re: that little audio file, Winky.

1) The land that the pilgims split up into tracts of land per family member... how exactly did they come about owning land in a place they'd never been before?

The same way that the original settlers of North America did it when they migrated across the Bering Straight from Russia/Asia on the land bridge that made it possible for them to do so.

2) What happened to the millions of indians [sic] living in North and South America before the pilrims [sic] arrived? Did they all just commit suicide, thankfully and selflessly giving away their land to the obviously holier-than-thou Pilgrims?

The file talks about the evolution of politics and the bill-of rights in what's now known as USA, but nothing about the fate of the conquered.

So you believe there were "millions" here at the arrival of the Europeans. Let's try some posited estimates by noted researchers and then let's do some math shall we?

SOURCE

Impact on Native Populations

The lack of hard evidence or written records has made estimating the number of Native Americans living in what is today the United States of America before the arrival of the European explorers and settlers the subject of much debate. A low estimate arriving at around 1 million was first posited by anthropologist James Mooney in the 1890s, computing population density of each culture area based on its carrying capacity.

In 1965, American anthropologist Henry Dobyns published studies estimating the original population at 10 to 12 million. By 1983, however, he increased his estimates to 18 million.[35] He took into account the mortality rates caused by infectious diseases of European explorers and settlers, against which Native Americans had no natural immunity. Dobyns combined the known mortality rates of these diseases among native people with reliable population records of the 19th century, to calculate the probable size of the original populations.[3][4]

So now, let's do the numbers.

First, let's find out when the last Indian wars were conducted.

SOURCE

Wounded Knee in 1890 is often considered the last battle of the Indian Wars although there was an expedition against the Ojibwa in Minnesota in 1898.

So let's take 1898 as the last Indian battle in the Indian wars.

We know that the Pilgrims arrived in 1620 but the Spanish had already arrived over one hundred years prior.

SOURCE

In 1513 Juan Ponce de León, sailing from Puerto Rico, encountered and named Florida, which he assumed to be another island. His voyage marks the beginning of continuous European contact with North America.

So now, let's run some numbers.

We will dispense with leap years and call every year a 365 day year for simplicity.

We will assume that Ponce De Leon started cutting down Indians the moment he set foot on dry land.

We will also consider the numbers expressed by Mooney and Dobyns as static and assume that the Indians were completely celibate over the entire time period in which they had no children at all. This does bring up the problem of the 385 year old Indian; but who's counting? Including any estimate of births would only drive the number of required kills per hour even farther into improbability.

Sooooooo ...

1898 - 1513 = 385 years between Spanish colonization and the last Indian battle of the Indian wars.

385 * 365 = 140,525 days

Given the 1890 Mooney figure of 1,000,000 we arrive at

1,000,000 / 140,525 = ~7 Indians, in a static population, killed on average per day, every day, for 385 years.

That would be ~ 1 Indian killed every 3.4 hours on average for 385 years.

An improbable figure.

Now, let's take the 1965 Dobyn's figure of 10-12 million, low and high, and see what number we arrive at.

The math is simple as all we have to do is to multiply the number above by 10 and 12.

7 * 10 = ~70 Indians, in a static population, killed on average per day, every day, for 385 years.

70 / 24 = ~3 Indians killed on average per hour, every hour, 24 hours per day for 385 years without let up.

An improbable figure.

When extrapolated to 12 million the figures become even more improbable.

7 * 12 = ~84 Indians, in a static population, killed on average per day, every day, for 385 years.

84 / 24 = ~3.5 Indians killed on average per hour, every hour, 24 hours per day for 385 years without let up.

Note that the figures also assume that the genocide, which is the total elimination of an entire group of people, wipes out the entire population of all indigenous Indian peoples and that no more indigenous Indian peoples exist in North America after 1898. Wiped out to the last man, woman, and child.

Ya might wanna rethink that "... millions of indians [sic] living in North and South America before the pilrims [sic] arrived" question.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

I must be bad, I feel zero guilt for the creation of my Great Nation.

I will enjoy every bite of my turkey and not even care about 400 year old injustices. I will however honor the sacrifices made by all in building these United States.

Happy Thanksgiving.​

 

[catocom]

a lot of wars happened to take land many years ago, but now the boarders
are, or were supposed to be set in the world.

I'm part indian, and part pilgrim.
If something in the way of war didn't happen in the lifetime of anyone left alive today, get over it.
We have a system, and it doesn't need Radical change.

 

[Gonz]

I must be bad, I feel zero guilt for the creation of my Great Nation.

I will enjoy every bite of my turkey and not even care about 400 year old injustices. I will however honor the sacrifices made by all in building these United States.

Happy Thanksgiving.​

We're supposed to feel guilty?

I recently heard that, it's quite probable that the injuns weren't invited to the first thanksgiving...they crashed the party. It wasn't a bad thing, in the end, but it doesn put another damper on the public school version.

 

[MrBishop]

So you believe there were "millions" here at the arrival of the Europeans. Let's try some posited estimates by noted researchers and then let's do some math shall we?

SOURCE



So now, let's do the numbers.

First, let's find out when the last Indian wars were conducted.

SOURCE



So let's take 1898 as the last Indian battle in the Indian wars.

We know that the Pilgrims arrived in 1620 but the Spanish had already arrived over one hundred years prior.

SOURCE



So now, let's run some numbers.

We will dispense with leap years and call every year a 365 day year for simplicity.

We will assume that Ponce De Leon started cutting down Indians the moment he set foot on dry land.

We will also consider the numbers expressed by Mooney and Dobyns as static and assume that the Indians were completely celibate over the entire time period in which they had no children at all. This does bring up the problem of the 385 year old Indian; but who's counting? Including any estimate of births would only drive the number of required kills per hour even farther into improbability.

Sooooooo ...

1898 - 1513 = 385 years between Spanish colonization and the last Indian battle of the Indian wars.

385 * 365 = 140,525 days

Given the 1890 Mooney figure of 1,000,000 we arrive at

1,000,000 / 140,525 = ~7 Indians, in a static population, killed on average per day, every day, for 385 years.

That would be ~ 1 Indian killed every 3.4 hours on average for 385 years.

An improbable figure.

Now, let's take the 1965 Dobyn's figure of 10-12 million, low and high, and see what number we arrive at.

The math is simple as all we have to do is to multiply the number above by 10 and 12.

7 * 10 = ~70 Indians, in a static population, killed on average per day, every day, for 385 years.

70 / 24 = ~3 Indians killed on average per hour, every hour, 24 hours per day for 385 years without let up.

An improbable figure.

When extrapolated to 12 million the figures become even more improbable.

7 * 12 = ~84 Indians, in a static population, killed on average per day, every day, for 385 years.

84 / 24 = ~3.5 Indians killed on average per hour, every hour, 24 hours per day for 385 years without let up.

Note that the figures also assume that the genocide, which is the total elimination of an entire group of people, wipes out the entire population of all indigenous Indian peoples and that no more indigenous Indian peoples exist in North America after 1898. Wiped out to the last man, woman, and child.

Ya might wanna rethink that "... millions of indians [sic] living in North and South America before the pilrims [sic] arrived" question.

4years * 365 days = 3285
5,100,000 people / 3285 = 1552/day
1552 / 24hr per day = 64.6 killed per hour, every hour, 24 hours/day unrelentlesly for four years!

You're right, Jim. The Nazi Holocaust could never have happened.

 

[MrBishop]

*Sorry Paul