This guy is so fired

[chcr]

No confusion. If that happened because of a President, imagine the peace, prosperity & tranquility that would come from a conservative age.

I didn't hear the Canucks nor the French telling the Soviets to tear down this wall. It would still be up if not for Reagan. I do recall the entire world screaming in fear that the Pershing II's were gonna be the death of us all. They only killed one thing....the evil empire, without being fired.

 

[MrBishop]

The Soviets fell because of Gorbachev's Perestroika. His failed attempt to bring the Soviets into the world of capitalism...as well as the fracturing of the nation into satellite states post-glasnost.

It took two years after the famous "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech before the wall came down. despite what you may or may not have heard... the political pressures applied to Mr Gorbachev were not unilateral.
It's also my opinion that the wall would've come down eventually anyway...if not in 1989, then in 1990, when Yeltsin took over...but by then it was too late.

Hungary's communist state had already fallen and East and West Germany were open by crossing through Hungary instead of having to go over the wall. The wall was more symbolic than effective.

As for nuclear holocaust - Thank God that it didn't happen. They very well could've been the death of us all.

 

[JTP]

Are we to be judged by the books in our library? I fear you'd find me pretty confusing. Will you be burning them next? Folks are who they decide to be. Putting it off on what they read is a huge stretch as well as an injustice.

Frank Zappa (re: rock lyrics effecting behavior)- "I wrote a song about dental floss. Did anyone's teeth get cleaner"?

 

[chcr]

Well, I thought about moving to Montana...

 

[spike]

Yes, your outrage is very evident.

I wasn't exactly outraged that you got your facts wrong. I simply corrected your mistake.

I'm not sure what your confusion or malfunction is now. What point are you trying to make exactly?

 

[Gonz]

The Soviets fell because of Gorbachev's Perestroika.

Which came about because of pressure brought on by Reagan, much to chcr's chagrin.

 

[2minkey]

Well, I thought about moving to Montana...

i could swear i already mentioned a pygmy pony in another thread.

 

[2minkey]

Which came about because of pressure brought on by Reagan, much to chcr's chagrin.

in any case, the myth about us running them into the ground with proportional increases in defense spending is horsepoot. their rate of spending did not increase during the reagan years like ours did.

you can thank the gipper all ya want. but the soviet union was killed by its own internal rot, not nothin' we did.

 

[Cerise]

Would you care to point out anything I said that would lead you to believe terrorist brutality doesn't bother me? Or that I find those other things (your country, soldiers, free speech, and capitalism) abhorrent?

Go ahead.

Go ahead and quote where I said anything similar. I'm starting to think you're hallucinating.

Our own intelligence agencies have stated that the Iraq invasion has increased terrorism....

This war was for political interests and obviously not any threat to the US. Yes, the people who mislead the public into it have soiled their name and worse.

Thankfully folks are paying attention now which is why most US citizens are against sending more troops to Iraq.

Yay, congress is listening to what the people want.

You been watching Team America? Freedom costs a buck 'o five.

It will be so much nicer when we go back to acting American.

Damn man, you live in some crazy fantasy world. The Bushies have you scared like a little hurt child. "Oh master Bush I will give up all my freedom and everything America stands for if you'd only just please please please please protects me from the boogeymen who will rape me in my butt and hang me in a soccer field if I don't!"

Pathetic. Get a grip.

I'm sure it also seems reasonable to you to be able to invade countries that are no threat and imprison their people without a trial.

Also, war was never declared.

I don't see anythiing there that indicates "al Qaeda becomes an extension of Saddam's madness and his hatred and his capacity to extend weapons of mass destruction around the world".

Actually history would show that he was odds with al Qaeda and was no threat "around the world".

Certainly doesn't explain "al Qaeda becomes an extension of Saddam's madness and his hatred and his capacity to extend weapons of mass destruction around the world" either.

Ooops we just miscalculated and wasted a trillion dollars and many thousands of lives.

Holy crap. Iraq attacked us? I must have missed it.

Why begin a war on terror where there wasn't a terrorist threat?

The payoff is he gets to start a war with Iraq like he wanted to. Where have you been?

Actually Bush is a fool with an agenda against this country that should be deported.

PNAC had been itching for a war with Iraq for years. The aftermath of 9/11 had everyone scared which gave the administration an opening to tie the invasion of Iraq to the terrorist attacks through the lies they repeated over and over about Al Qaeda.

It worked. They lied and a large scary amount of Americans and even US soldiers fell for it and believed that Hussien was behind the attacks.

This allowed them to focus most of the military's efforts in Iraq instead of going after Bin Laden or fighting real threats.

So who did this profit? Well there's the obvious usual suspects like Halliburton and other companies with no bid contracts. Then there's the billions of dollars that has just gone missing right?

Of course it'd be silly not to notice the oil fields Iraq has. Or the fact that Exxon and other oil companies are making record profits right now.

So hey PNAC got what they wanted, lots of people got rich and yet it only cost the tax payers a trillion dollars, millions of displaced Iraqis, countless dead or maimed, and a screwed up economy.

Might as well sell some more arms to Iran too I suppose.

War on Terror

Yay! Get 'em out of there and quit wasting my tax dollars.

Sure, what's it matter if Iran supplies arms to insurgents or if we do. It can't really turn into much more of a clusterfock.

Clinton was acquitted.

We'll have to see if the same will be true for Bush.

You're tax dollars hard at work in the war on terror

Wow, It sounds like you actually want your leaders to lie and deceive the public in order to further their agenda We can all recognize the lies the administration has used (well most of can) but your blatant support of the corruption is a rare type of honesty.

If you wanted protected you voted for the wrong guy.

You got someone that would kill a bunch of people for having the wrong religion instead.

Oops.

 

[spike]

Thanks for showing that I've never said terrorist brutality doesn't bother me.

 

[Gonz]

in any case, the myth about us running them into the ground with proportional increases in defense spending is horsepoot. their rate of spending did not increase during the reagan years like ours did.

you can thank the gipper all ya want. but the soviet union was killed by its own internal rot, not nothin' we did.

Since you can't prove what never happened, we'll never know if Carters second term would have done them in or not.

 

[2minkey]

nice try, gonz. we can certainly disprove the assertion that our military spending was matched by the USSR when the numbers pile up, or, rather fail to. having those REAL NUMBERS for comparison, the myth of "killed by the arms race" falls right on it's silly face.

but lets keep that "prove a negative" thing close in mind for next time.

 

[chcr]

in any case, the myth about us running them into the ground with proportional increases in defense spending is horsepoot. their rate of spending did not increase during the reagan years like ours did.

you can thank the gipper all ya want. but the soviet union was killed by its own internal rot, not nothin' we did.

You have to admit though, that the spin doctors took advantage of said inevitable collapse and did a pretty good job of convincing a certain segment of the population that we had something to do with it.

 

[Gonz]

hmmmm, nearly 50 years & they were dominating. Suddenly, when faced with someone who wouldn't back down, they collapse. He might not have been the ultimate cause but he certainly hastened their departure.

 

[spike]

Gonz, just do a litle research instaed of making up your own reality.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/coldwar/soviet_end_01.shtml

 

[Frodo]

Well, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Did Reagan's tough stance hurt them. Yes, in a time of financial hardship they could not/would not back off on their military at the expense of the economy (it did not make them spend more, they did not have the option of spending less). The biggest contributor was probably Afghanistan. That started a downward spiral. I wonder what made that war so tough for them.

 

[Gonz]

Revisionist history, at its finest.

 

[spike]

Revisionist history, at its finest.

Yes, you do that often.