Patriots may have been cheating!

[woodman19_99]

Everyone keeps bringing up past incidents. If it was so bad back then, why the hell wasn't anything done about it? If you're not going to punish them for it then, you have no right whatsoever to bring those occurrences up again when penalizing the team for this.

I understand that it was cheating, I really do. But I think that Goodell knows EVERYONE in the league is operating shady activities to gain a competitive advantage, it comes with the sport. When you have the elite athletes and coaching staff going head to head, you need to do whatever you can to gain even the slightest edge.

In no way shape or form can I say that what they did wasn't cheating. I know they cheated, and honestly it sucks. Every single fan will look at the past with a question in their head from now on. But they can not be punished now for what was done in the past. Every other fan was looking for any possible reason to hate the Patriots and now they have one, so they are going to blow it sky high.

 

[unclehobart]

So that brings us back to the cheating within the sphere of the one game. How do you punish them for the one game? You take it away from them. W into an L. Its not like they aren't going to lock up the division anyway. Take the meds early and get it over with. Make it a faded memory by playoffs.

...and then work on a better system for cheating that isnt so obvious.

 

[woodman19_99]

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So, do we need to put an astericks on every game ever played?

 

[woodman19_99]

So that brings us back to the cheating within the sphere of the one game. How do you punish them for the one game? You take it away from them. W into an L. Its not like they aren't going to lock up the division anyway. Take the meds early and get it over with. Make it a faded memory by playoffs.

...and then work on a better system for cheating that isnt so obvious.

How can you take away the game? The tape had absolutely nothing to do with the final result!

 

[unclehobart]

How do you know that in fact? If they had been taping for a year, two, five... they would have a developed playbook of the various signals that could be used within the game. The photographers in the coordinators booth are sending real time photographs down to the offensive coordinators all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've seen QB's pouring over photos and data from stuff not even one offensive series old. So what if the information gleaned at the time did not help them within the one game. It surely was inofrmation to be analyzed and used for a future game. Do we then need to declare the next meeting with the Jets to be an automatic loss because the information was to be used in the future? Thats a bunch of hooey. There was no way to tell that in fact the signals were not being transmitted real time to the defensive coordinators for digestion so that they can tell the defensive captain: When they say 'red romeo' it is a string fullback rush to the right. A 'red romeo zone' is a string to the left, and a 'red romeo flip' is a line cancel command for a play action pass. I wouldn't put it past their ability to pull it off in the slightest. I say it has everything to do with the final result outside of the sheer talent of the players themselves. I think the Pats would have won it anyway without the tweaks from the steals... but the tweaks sure as hell make it more of a lock.

 

[markjs]

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So, do we need to put an astericks on every game ever played?

No, we don't. What you presented was a few Patriots appologists opinions, based on past "tricks of the trade". Not once do I see any of the other examples of espionage that was described as actually against a written rule. Shady? yes, illegal, no. Even if these articles were citing actual rule violations, one last time; no amount of the wrongs of others excuse the wrongs of Belichick. He has been caught before, and the NFL has swept it under the rug. Here's the valid points I found in those articles of yours:

Here's the thing with Belichick: this charge fits perfectly with everything we know about him on and off the field. He's no angel, a lifetime of drama that ranged from backing out of contracts, feuding with mentors (Bill Parcells) and protégés (Eric Mangini) alike and even giving the tabloids plenty of fodder for his, ah, extracurricular behavior, if you will.

"You hear rumors of things of that nature," Tomlin said, noting it often comes from the "New England family." "In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge. But usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."

Not shocking, perhaps. But embarrassing? Absolutely. The Green Bay Packers claim they caught a Patriots employee videotaping their signals a year ago and complained to the NFL.

If New England's defense is as feeble as expected, then the franchise should be punished. The rules are the rules, no matter how often they are broken; no matter the base culture.

Goodell should take a draft pick or even suspend Belichick, who's iron-fisted leadership means no employee would dare try this without his knowledge. Stealing signals via the human eye is one thing. Having an employee use a video camera speaks to an operation that is both brazen and premeditated.

So that gets us to the matter of Belichick and his videotaping. In short, it's wrong and Belichick was warned about it before. Do he and the Patriots deserve the punishment? Yes, he blatantly violated the league rules.

Belichick also deserves to be punished for doing it unnecessarily. In other words, he was stupid and that's something rarely ever said or written about Belichick. Right now, the Patriots are better than the Jets, by a good margin. You save this type of cheating for moments when it really matters. Moreover, video technology is good enough these days that the Patriots could have taped the signals in a far less obvious way, including from owner Bob Kraft's luxury box.

What should be happening is a full scale investigation to find out how long the rule breaking has gone on, and then the Patriots be punished accordingly. What has happened is a slap on the wrist and another quick sweep under the rug. Again, Belichick, is a man of poor character, and he ought to be done away with.

 

[woodman19_99]

There's also no proof that the was being piped to the defensive coordinators... given, in all likely hood it was, but again, there was no proof.

Another thing I find interesting:

As a former Patriots employee, Jets coach Eric Mangini must have known what was going on. So why didn't he have some kind of system of dummy calls set up to foul up the video surveillance?

"He did," says a former Patriots employee whose name cannot be used for obvious reasons. "He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots last year. But still, it means extra work, changing the way you prepare for a game. It means both clubs are not playing on the same level field, and that's what's wrong about it."

Coming from SI. Now I could have chopped off that last line, but I am not going to skew the quote. I know it was wrong, but if Mangini knew about, why wasn't the person removed before the game even started?

 

[woodman19_99]

One last thing: There is no way to prove what was done in the past. You can't legitimately investigate what was happening in the past. It's one word against the other. Especially when it comes to Super Bowls, I have not doubt in my mind that every person who opposed the Pats and lost would lie through their teeth to try and get the Super Bowl overturned.

And now I'm done with this. You guys needed your excuse to not like the Patriots and now you got it. Have fun with that and believing that nobody else does it. I am sure the Mike Holmgren is fucking saint.

 

[markjs]

You can't legitimately investigate what was happening in the past.

So why do we prosecute criminals from cold cases?

Even if it is found that they have done this from the start of Belichick's tenure I am not advocating taking any win from before this season, nor any Superbowl rings from the Pats. I am advocating finding out about Belichicks history of cheating so we can get rid of the guy, and so we can put an asterisk by each victory.

 

[woodman19_99]

Jesus christ. Cold cases tend to have EVIDENCE! Not word of mouth for christs sake. That's all you can have with this!

 

[markjs]

Cant investigate the past! I am still laughing, that has to be the single most preposterous staement I have ever heard on the entire internet.....THANK YOU, for that!

But on the subject of Holmgren, if it had been him caught cheating, I would probably write a personal snail mail letter calling for his head! I wouldn't want my franchise tainted like that, because from now on as long as Belichick is your coach, there will always be an asterisk in opposing fans minds, concerning your record from the time he started, to the time he ends his career with the Patriots. Sux to be you....

God help him if he doesn't walk the straight and narrow from now on, or at least doesn't get caught!

 

[woodman19_99]

Sux to be me? Cause I give a rats ass about other fans having an astericks in their mind?

And can't investigate the past was directed at this particular situation. Just how would you go about doing?

And BS to what you would do if it was Homgren. Such BS...

 

[markjs]

Jesus christ. Cold cases tend to have EVIDENCE! Not word of mouth for christs sake. That's all you can have with this!

Bullshit again. If the NFL was smart they'd have raided the Patriots video library, and I would bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut, that they'd find the smoking gun, how long it's been there and some idea how much impact it has had on games.

 

[markjs]

And yeah, I would do exactly that if it was Holmy. When everyone in Seattle was clamoring for his firing a few years ago I wrote a snail mail letter to them then in his support, and I got a personal letter back thanking me for my input. But go on and think what you will.

What sucks to be you is that if the Pats suddenly become a more average team (which I admit is unlikely this year with the players they have), everyone is gonna laugh it up all year at your expense. The very fact you are so defensive proves to me this bothers you, and you don't like the taint it puts on your team. I am surprised you are even arguing in favor if this scumbag.

If it was Holmgren I would write that letter quietly, but in a place like Off Topic Central, my opinion would probably be quite notably absent when it comes to defending Holmgren. I might defend the quality of our players, but I assure you, Holmy would be permanently in my doghouse!

 

[woodman19_99]

And yeah, I would do exactly that if it was Holmy. When everyone in Seattle was clamoring for his firing a few years ago I wrote a snail mail letter to them then in his support, and I got a personal letter back thanking me for my input. But go on and think what you will.

What sucks to be you is that if the Pats suddenly become a more average team (which I admit is unlikely this year with the players they have), everyone is gonna laugh it up all year at your expense. The very fact you are so defensive proves to me this bothers you, and you don't like the taint it puts on your team. I am surprised you are even arguing in favor if this scumbag.

If it was Holmgren I would write that letter quietly, but in a place like Off Topic Central, my opinion would probably be quite notably absent when it comes to defending Holmgren. I might defend the quality of our players, but I assure you, Holmy would be permanently in my doghouse!

I am trying to defend these guys because everyone else in this league does something similar to what they got caught doing, yet every other fan I have talked to thinks that their team is above doing this, and honestly, it pisses me off.

Does it bug me that it happened and that it makes me question that game? Sure does. But honestly, I don't have any questions about games in the past, cause there was never any proof/evidence of it happening in the past.

I've been a Red Sox fan my whole life too, so getting ridiculed when something goes wrong is nothing new to me. We'll just see how the rest of the season plays out. If we continue to dominate and at least get to the playoffs, will people still question the past? Or will people start to think "Well shit, maybe they were always this good"? If I wasn't really interested before, I am sure gonna be now to see how the rest of the season plays out for all the teams. What if the colts suddenly lose 8 straight? Were they cheating too, and now Manning can't pick up on defenses cause nobody is telling him what they are gonna run? I dunno.

And just for the record, I think the punishment should probably have included at least a suspension for Belicheck for 2+ weeks. Whole season? No. Reversing the result of the game? Definitely not.

 

[woodman19_99]

Bullshit again. If the NFL was smart they'd have raided the Patriots video library, and I would bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut, that they'd find the smoking gun, how long it's been there and some idea how much impact it has had on games.

Do you really think, that if they had done this in the past, they'd just keep it in there with every other piece of film? C'mon....

 

[markjs]

But honestly, I don't have any questions about games in the past, cause there was never any proof/evidence of it happening in the past.

"You hear rumors of things of that nature," Tomlin said, noting it often comes from the "New England family." "In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge. But usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."

Not shocking, perhaps. But embarrassing? Absolutely. The Green Bay Packers claim they caught a Patriots employee videotaping their signals a year ago and complained to the NFL.

I am trying to defend these guys because everyone else in this league does something similar to what they got caught doing, yet every other fan I have talked to thinks that their team is above doing this, and honestly, it pisses me off.

There is no proof or evidence that any other team has done this ever. So since we don't at this moment have the proof that the Patriots have done this for more than the last two years, you are sayin we should assume everyone else is doing just as bad, yet we have no evidence to suggest that the Patriots have engaged in this behavior for more than two games in the history of the game? Which is it woodman? You just can't have it both ways. Signal srealing is shady but not against the rules. Using a camera to do it is.

The fact that the Pats were so adamant on doing this, even after warnings, tells me that they were reaping some major benefits from it. It was a big enough of a competitive advantage that it was worth the risks to them.

I agree with him totally. You are trying to defend something which is pretty much indefensible.

 

[markjs]

Do you really think, that if they had done this in the past, they'd just keep it in there with every other piece of film? C'mon....

Absolutely, they have to have some sort of database of what these signals are, it's gone by now probably, but had the NFL acted sensibly and quickly I have no doubt they'd have enough to nail that guy.

 

[markjs]

One last thing.....

.....And now I'm done with this....

Stop! before you lose the argument any worse....

 

[woodman19_99]

What you quoted from that article is no proof what so ever. If the Packers had real evidence, why was nothing done about it? Were they just trying to be nice, saying "oh, well we'll just remove the person, by not actually do anything about it"? Why was it not a bigger story? Why is it that after the Pats have been doing so well does it become a major issue?