As Toledo burns

HomeLAN said:
Yep. And the organizers can be arrested and so charged, without the benefit of free speech protection. See how that works?
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Why was the march allowed to occur if the results were easily predicted?

I'm not trying to defend the rioters in any way. It's illegal and dowright stupid.
Pretty stupid on behalf of the population to fall for it that easily, hook line and sinker, but...
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MrBishop said:
Why was the march allowed to occur if the results were easily predicted?
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Ask the elected body that approved it. I'm sure their constituants will. If I had to defend the decision, I'd probably go with something like "We EXPECTED the citizenry to obey the law." Your supposition is that this was to be expected. I'm not so sure.
 
There was riot squad and tear gas there. The police knew what was going to go down, the local politicians knew when they refused them a license to march (on the streets)..
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It wouldn't be the first time that this group had been refused their march, for exactly the same reasons. This is also not the first time that their marches have incited violence. They're banned all over the world, specifically because they pick a neighbourhood where they will inflame the local populace...not just black neighbourhoods either. They've been banned from marching in predominantly Jewish neighbourhoods.

"We EXPECTED the citizenry to obey the law." - if so, why the HUGE police presence? It's a great political excuse, and does a good job of placing the blame on the populace. A better solution would've been to use those cops to stop the march entirely. Save everyone a whole whack of trouble.
 
You seem to want to point the finger at anyone but the people who actually rioted. All you seem to hold them guilty of is stupidity for giving the Nazis the publicity. I see it as more complex than that. The Nazis bear some responsibility, the elected authorities bear some, and THE RIOTERS BEAR THE MAJORITY. Why are you so set on giving them a free pass?
 
HomeLAN said:
You seem to want to point the finger at anyone but the people who actually rioted. All you seem to hold them guilty of is stupidity for giving the Nazis the publicity. I see it as more complex than that. The Nazis bear some responsibility, the elected authorities bear some, and THE RIOTERS BEAR THE MAJORITY. Why are you so set on giving them a free pass?
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Because it's the politically expedient thing to do.
 
Why should black people stand for a Neo-Nazi march in their area? You are all talking about it as if black people simply hold a different viewpoint than Neo-Nazis, which is correct, however the viewpoint is that Neo-Nazis think that black people should be exterminated (along with Jews, other ethnic groups etc.).

Why should their right to free speech be protected? If this was a march organised by a group coming under the umbrella of Al-Qaeda, where they protest from the position of wanting to see American people exterminated, then I find it hard to believe that many of you would defend their right to do that. Nor would I expect you to disagree if people decided to react violently towards it.

Why is this any different? Why should fucking Neo-Nazis be allowed to protest about gang violence? Considering Nazis were responsible for possibly the most significant act of genocide in modern history, why should they be free to protest on the streets and spread that idealogy of murder?

I find it kind of strange that someone with an Israeli flag in their avatar has floated so far over to the right that they become apologists for Nazis. Maybe what they say about today's Israel having a lot in common with the Nazis is true, in that regard.
 
HomeLAN said:
You seem to want to point the finger at anyone but the people who actually rioted. All you seem to hold them guilty of is stupidity for giving the Nazis the publicity. I see it as more complex than that. The Nazis bear some responsibility, the elected authorities bear some, and THE RIOTERS BEAR THE MAJORITY. Why are you so set on giving them a free pass?
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Shall I quote myself again?
Pretty stupid on behalf of the population to fall for it that easily, hook line and sinker,
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I'm not giving them a free pass, nor am I saying in any way, shape or form, that the riot was a good thing...or should be forgiven. Arrest as many as you can..you won't get any arguments from me.

I'm saying that it needn't have happened. It was predictable and wasn't stopped short. I'm curious as to whether any of the neo-Nazis will be arrested ... somehow, I doubt it.
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
Hush now. We all know if it's a black victim, it's racism. If it's a black perpetrator, then they did it because they've been victims of racism.

Get it straight please. And do try to keep up in the future.
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Since when? I've been a victim of racism, but that doesn't give me the right to riot...There's an old saying...

Give an idiot enough rope, and he will hang everybody but himself.
 
Bobby Hogg said:
Why should their right to free speech be protected?
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Because they are American citizens, and our constitution guarantees them the right. My, your, or anyone else's agreement with their agenda notwithstanding. It's the same right that King and others used for civil rights marches. Their cause was just; these fools' wasn't. But the protection under that right remains unaltered by "just".

Bobby Hogg said:
If this was a march organised by a group coming under the umbrella of Al-Qaeda, where they protest from the position of wanting to see American people exterminated, then I find it hard to believe that many of you would defend their right to do that. Nor would I expect you to disagree if people decided to react violently towards it.
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That's where we differ. I would not agree with that cause either, but would defend their right to assemble, march, whatever...so long as their activities were lawful. Anyone has a right to walk down the street...ANY street.

Bobby Hogg said:
Why is this any different? Why should fucking Neo-Nazis be allowed to protest about gang violence?
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Because they are American citizens...
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
Because they are American citizens, and our constitution guarantees them the right. My, your, or anyone else's agreement with their agenda notwithstanding. It's the same right that King and others used for civil rights marches. Their cause was just; these fools' wasn't. But the protection under that right remains unaltered by "just".



That's where we differ. I would not agree with that cause either, but would defend their right to assemble, march, whatever...so long as their activities were lawful. Anyone has a right to walk down the street...ANY street.
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I don't agree that they do have the right to protest as a group dedicated to the extermination of ethnic minorities. Freedom of speech is a misleading term: you are not free to say what you like and in particular you are not allowed to incite hatred or violence.

In this case, the parade should never have been allowed to go ahead because it was clearly provocative, and while it may be wrong to riot, it could be predicted and the aim should have been to prevent tensions like these being raised, not to heighten them.
 
Bobby Hogg said:
I don't agree that they do have the right to protest as a group dedicated to the extermination of ethnic minorities.
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Would you agree that they had the right to protest as a group with an agenda to promote one race over another?
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
Would you agree that they had the right to protest as a group with an agenda to promote one race over another?
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OBJECTION, your Honor!
Leading the witness!
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
Would you agree that they had the right to protest as a group with an agenda to promote one race over another?
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Well, no, because as Neo-Nazis they are marching as a group who endorse or encourage violence against ethnic minorities. The point you are reaching for is ludicrous.
 
SouthernN'Proud said:
How so? Or are you one of those proponents that racism only flows one direction?
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Is that your "thing" here? I didn't say anything like that, I just find it ridiculous how many apologists there are for Neo-Nazis in this day and age.
 
Dude. Read what I said, not what you want it to say. I clearly stated that their cause is deplorable. That does not diminish their rights one iota.

If we are going to start limiting rights of people/organizations based on agendas, and if having notions of promoting one race over all others is to be among the defining characteristics used, I can name an organization in some serious peril. It's in their name even.

Just so you can sleep tonight, I disagree vehemently with neo-nazi causes. These people are despicable in every sense of the word. But to allow one group to march for racial reasons in obviously hostile environments (celebrate the cause even), while disallowing another to do exactly the same thing is, well, you probably have a dictionary. It's under H.
 
If a black group marched with the creed of wanting to destroy the white (and other races) I would see your point as it regards to what I am talking about.

Again, Nazis aren't simply for the advancement of white people, they are for the extermination of other races and for violence against non-whites. That mandate should not be protected under free speech laws. Free speech isn't a sacred right, it has necessary limits. Nazi groups should be illegal.
 
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