Iraq, would you turn back the clock?

[PT]

I've often considered that very thing. There are at least two sides to every war, that much is a given. What we can also assume is that both sides are dead set in their belief that thier side is the right and noble one. To say that Osama wasn't noble because he fought for what he believed in is a blow to anyone who has fought for what they believed in. Obviously, he went overboard in his beliefs, but as was stated, can we really blame him for that? Much like the Shiites in Iraq, we promised the Afgans support, yet provided little. It amazes me sometimes that there aren't more terrorist attacks.

 

[outside looking in]

Yes, terrorists are noble people because they believe in what they are doing.

 

[PT]

Yes, terrorists are noble people because they believe in what they are doing.

To THEM, and to the people that support them, they are the most noble. That's my point. Of course, we see them as the scum of the earth, much like they see us.

 

[outside looking in]

I don't care how they see themselves. Charles Manson probably saw himself as noble. I'm sure many of his followers saw him as noble as well.

There's a difference between thinking you are noble and feeling noble, and actually being noble. Likewise, there's a difference between thinking someone else is noble, and them actually being noble.

 

[flavio]

Well it's a scary thing to try and get inside some elses head that you are opposed to and try to see their point of view.

It's much easier to dismiss them as insane or radical or whatever.

But without understanding there will never be peace.

 

[Aunty Em]

I just think that maybe if we had kept our noses out of everybody elses business in the past and not tried to manipulate situations to our own advantage then half of the troubles we're now contending with wouldn't exist...

But maybe that's just wishful thinking... and whatever, we're now left holding the bag and having to try to sort out a situation that just gets worse the more we try to deal with it...

Pessimistic? You bet... I just don't see an end to this... ever!

 

[ris]

Much like the Shiites in Iraq, we promised the Afgans support, yet provided little. It amazes me sometimes that there aren't more terrorist attacks.

as far as i understand it afghanistan is not in the best of states at the moment; still unstable with in-fighting, heroin production at a high, promised development monies yet to make a real show. if this is how the peace is won then i really hope iraq is handled differently.

 

[Shadowfax]

There's a difference between thinking you are noble and feeling noble, and actually being noble. Likewise, there's a difference between thinking someone else is noble, and them actually being noble.

but that's the whole point, osli...in their eyes THEY are noble and the other party is the scum.
you say they are scum, and that 'we' are noble. but why is that? because you think that what we fight for is best.
they do exactly the same. i'm not justifying terrorist attacks, but i am saying that it's all relative and that things highly rely on a matter of definition.


of course we are right. and that is the biggest cause of wars and religious conflicts. because we are 100 percent, absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.
but they think that as well.


see my point?

 

[ris]

entrenchment so far that neither side can even accept that the other is entitled to a view.

 

[chcr]

Pessimistic? You bet... I just don't see an end to this... ever!

Well, I can think of a way it could end, but I don't think anyone would like it very much. Since before we were human, we've been fighting. A lot of people seem to think we're trying to change that; I don't even think we can. Aunty, there's a difference between pessimism and realism, although sometimes they seem the same.

 

[Gonz]

we still refer to them as terrorists even when the target military installations

This is why most Americans (and other countrys victims of terrorism) haven't blown thier top before now. So often, it is military they are after (Khobar Towers, USS Cole), but once it's made "personal", the shit hit the fan, Had they only hit Pentagon we wouldn't be on the warpath (though somebody would have paid for getting onto our soil).

Should I be glad I live in the UK

An apt description I once read somewhere: "we Brits have forotten more dirty tricks than you Yanks ever dreamed"...considering the history of the UK, it's got to be true

 

[Aunty Em]

We've had longer to practice... and with the rise and fall of our Empire we now know we're not omnipotent... I guess you still have that to come.

Hmm, when you consider the rise and fall of empires and direction of travel, does that mean that when yours falls it will be the Pacific nations who rise or will it be south eastern asias turn? Or maybe even new zealand and australia? Interesting thought...

 

[Gonz]

Power, it seems, comes with the human movement. So, it'll either start over (China) or there will no more superpowers...maybe we can all learn to get along.










Nah, that's too easy.

 

[Aunty Em]

The human race get along... nah, I think that's one thing we can agree on... it's unlikely to ever happen.

 

[outside looking in]

but that's the whole point, osli...in their eyes THEY are noble and the other party is the scum.

Yes, but they are wrong.

you say they are scum, and that 'we' are noble. but why is that? because you think that what we fight for is best.

NO! It doesn't matter what I think. We are not to be judged on our ideas, thoughts, or words. We are to be judged by our actions. On those grounds, terrorists are not noble. They never have been, and never will be.

It doesn't matter what the reason for fighting is. Everyone has their own views, and I'm rather certain that many of the Islamic viewpoints have a lot of merit. They probably have a lot of reasons for fighting, and some are good reasons. Nothing is a good enough reason to intentionally target men, women and children that have no intrinsic military value.

Do you see my point?

 

[chcr]

I have to agree with OLI. Whether or not someone has done something honorable in the past, a terrorist gives up all honor to try to get things done regardless of the cost. Honor must dictate that some costs are too high, terrorism does not.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Sandinista and Castro were ours too...And Gato, if you take an unbiased look at what Osama did in Afgahnistan, you would surely consider it noble. He was fighting for something he believed in and it wasn't even his fight. Beyond that the man had no need to fight for anyone for any reason. He was in a position to enjoy his life to the fullest forever and still he commited himself to that cause. It was our mistake of turning our backs on Afgahnistan then that made him anti-american. And before anyone tries, that doesn't mean I condone what happened on 9/11. It just means I understand how he became what he did...
As far as the left right thing, I can't recall you ever seriously contesting something the right has posted in RW but the left has always been contested by you.

Actually, when it comes down to it, I contest the left more because the left tends to be more extreme in their views. If somebody started a post claiming that the Nazi party was great, you can be sure I'd give them a good broadside. I've also come down for the left when it comes to free speech, even though I may not like the message. Most folks feel that, no matter what you say, or where you say it, it's covered by the first amendment.

Anyway...back to the most important issue here. What's to become of Iraq. My personal feelings are this. Fix what we broke, and get the hell out of Dodge. Do not, under any circumstances, let the UN dictate, advise, or otherwise meddle in the affairs of Iraq, and, until the people there decide what they want to do we offer whatever protection they need.

 

[chcr]

Anyway...back to the most important issue here. What's to become of Iraq. My personal feelings are this. Fix what we broke, and get the hell out of Dodge. Do not, under any circumstances, let the UN dictate, advise, or otherwise meddle in the affairs of Iraq, and, until the people there decide what they want to do we offer whatever protection they need.

I like your thinking Gato, I just don't think it will go down that way. And if it does, will they end up with another Saddam? I was going to say or worse, but that's hard to imagine, isn't it? I call it optomistic pessimism, hoping for the best while expecting the worst.

 

[Aunty Em]

And if it does, will they end up with another Saddam? I was going to say or worse, but that's hard to imagine, isn't it?

When it comes to human nature I've come to the conclusion that it can always get worse!

 

[Luis G]

[attachment]113704[/attachment] @ thread

You guys should read Chomsky, you'll find this thread amusing.