Israel? Gaza? Hamas? Who? What? Where?

MrBishop said:
Israel doesn't want Hamas acting like a civilized GVT. That would give them (Hamas) recognition as a viable GVT. Israel wants Hamas gone..period.

Which is why Israel doesn't want money to rebuild Gaza going through Hamas..especially if it comes from Iran.
They don't want to deal directly with Hamas.
The EU and America doesn't want to deal directly with Hamas.
Nobody seems to want to do anything with Hamas except overthrow it..or failing that, Isolate it until civil war overthrows it.

How do you isolate it and add pressure?
Limit fresh water - check
Limit fuel - check
Limit electricity - check
Limit medical supplies - check
Limit imports (Food, clothing, building materials...)- check
Limit border crossings - check

All these have been done and it's not working...it's just ticking off the Palestinians who throw rockets over the border and give Israel yet another excuse to bomb the hell out of Gaza.

You want it to work?
1) Accept that Hamas rules Gaza and treat them like any other GVT.
2) Take down the pressure a multitude of notches
3) Let Hamas try and rebuild and run Gaza (If they can't manage it, they'll get voted out).
4) Remove Hamas from the terrorist list. It ain't helping.
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And what do you do with the Hamas militants that launch rockets at Israeli civilians (women, men and children)?
 
Israel conducts it's own terrorism as well. Period.

There is no way that this is a one sided issue. Period.
 
valkyrie said:
And what do you do with the Hamas militants that launch rockets at Israeli civilians (women, men and children)?
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Make them irrelevant, or better yet..negative to their own organization.

The rockets are flying overhead in protest to a particular situation. Remove that situation and tell the leaders of Hamas "The water, oil, electricity, food, people etc will flow across the border so long as the rockets stop AND We'll give you credit for rebuilding Palestine" and the Hamas leaders ship will put a stop tot he rockets themselves.
 
yeah while "make them irrelevant" is certainly on target, hamas is beyond rational argument. i don't think they are really interested in becoming heroes through re-electrification of gaza. i think theys done got something more dramatic in mind.

but what could be done to make them truly irrelevant?
 
what Israel needs is a microwave shield, like a quick action force field.
nuke them rockets outta the sky at the borders.
 
2minkey said:
yeah while "make them irrelevant" is certainly on target, hamas is beyond rational argument. i don't think they are really interested in becoming heroes through re-electrification of gaza. i think theys done got something more dramatic in mind.

but what could be done to make them truly irrelevant?
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The destruction of Israel sounds good when Israel is the enemy that represses you. If you un-demonize Israel in the eyes of the average Palestinian, you force Hamas to either play nice or get replaced by someone who will.

Look at the IRA for a fine example of how a long-term problem can get defused with some give and a lot of diplomacy and good will.

On 28 July 2005, the IRA Army Council announced an end to its armed campaign, stating that it would work to achieve its aims using "purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means" and that IRA "Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever."[8]

An internal British Army document released in 2007 stated that the British Army had failed to defeat the IRA by force of arms but also claims to have 'shown the IRA that it could not achieve its ends through violence.' The military assessment describes the IRA as 'professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient.'[9]

In September 2008, the nineteenth report of the Independent Monitoring Commission stated that the IRA was "committed to the political path" and no longer represented "a threat to peace or to democratic politics."[10] The IRA's Army Council has been described as 'no longer operational or functional.'[11]
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catocom said:
what Israel needs is a microwave shield, like a quick action force field.
nuke them rockets outta the sky at the borders.
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Un-necessary - those rockets are a joke and rarely hit their target (if such things could be considered aimed). They're the equivalent of firing an M16 into the air at 42º in the general direction of your bosses' house and hoping to hit him in the butt. Kinda like the scud, but less high-tech. :lol2:
 
Here's teh Quassam missile in full glory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket
qassam_7.jpg


Testers (toy maker) makes more effective weapons.
 
MrBishop said:
Un-necessary - those rockets are a joke and rarely hit their target (if such things could be considered aimed). They're the equivalent of firing an M16 into the air at 42º in the general direction of your bosses' house and hoping to hit him in the butt. Kinda like the scud, but less high-tech. :lol2:
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hey man, if it could save one life, it's necessary.
 
2minkey said:
hmmm. i thought testers actually had the contract on those...
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Nah...they're home-made crap. Metal tube sealed on both sides...holes with funnels at the bottom... solid Pot.nitrate/sugar propellant, scavaged explosives in the head. Impact only detonation and no steering. Tubes might be made in China.

Ineffective too: 2000+ rockets fired since 2002 with 15 people killed.

I've created more accurate 'missiles' using Lays™ chip tubes, electric tape, a drill, lighter fluid, a broken on/off switch from a toy car, AAA battery and a tennis ball.

I can shoot a tennis ball the length of a football field and have good odds of getting a field goal :D
 
MrBishop said:
Un-necessary - those rockets are a joke and rarely hit their target:
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Even if they never hit anything but dirt, it's still the fact that weapons are being aimed & fired at a sovereign nation. If the locals can't. ot won't, take care of the problem, it's time for the F-16's & Abrams.
 
If they fire weapons at Palestinians then of course that means its time to fire more weapons at Israel. Unless of course the local Israelis can stop their military from escalating things again.
 
Gonz said:
Even if they never hit anything but dirt, it's still the fact that weapons are being aimed & fired at a sovereign nation. If the locals can't. ot won't, take care of the problem, it's time for the F-16's & Abrams.
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Great...now the question is "Why are these ineffective weapons being fired against said sovereign nation?"

That's the problem that needs to be addressed. Anything else (F-16's and MiA1's) is just tit-for-tat....and almost as ineffective.
 
MrBishop said:
Great...now the question is "Why are these ineffective weapons being fired against said sovereign nation?"

That's the problem that needs to be addressed. Anything else (F-16's and MiA1's) is just tit-for-tat....and almost as ineffective.
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i'd wager to say that an f16, or rather the ordnance it, er, 'distributes' is fairly effective in a few different ways, such as...

1. killing targeted "terrorists"
2. killing 7-8x more people who happen to be in that same area
3. enraging the families of those "collaterals" for generations to come

all in all, a very effective tool for those that wish to continue hostilities until the end of time.
 
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