Who is 'Us' ?

[Lopan]

There are simply not enough catastrophes in history to keep man's population growth low enough to allow for 100,000 years or more.]

As you can see population has only accelerated after the second world war. This was known as the "Baby boom". China and the developing world have since added to the population explosion, this gave rise to the one family one baby rule in China.

Source

Just out of interest, how much of what is said in the bible can be cross referenced. The Greeks, Romans and Egyptians kept detailed records yet, Herodotus who is known as the Father of history never mentions any of what the bible says (Ed: He is also known as the father of lies, but only because he embellishes stories) The Egyptians noted a slaves uprising about the time of moses, the parting of the red sea isn't noted.

 

[chcr]

I too find it for interpertation and in truth I always thought it based on myths and legends. I think you are the one besides Dr.Lane who mentioned the Epic of Gilgamesh as being one of many basis for the Bible. My comment about the 10 commandments was more of you using it rather than the Bible. Sorry about the misunderstanding

Umm... the ten commandments are from the bible, freak. Where'd you thinnk we got 'em from, Charlton Heston?

 

[freako104]

I always thought they were a separate part of Christianity?

 

[AlladinSane]

It is part from Judahism from where christinism evolved. Judahism is based on 2 main codes. The 10 divine commandments, given by God inspiration to Moses, and the disciplinar laws created by Moses after. These second part, was needed at the time to keep order in a turbulent people. To gain credit it was needed to attribute them a divine origin. A It was needed an image of a severe(?) God to state rerspect and order to rather primitive men. This second part is mainly what Christ has re-formulated. When he came people was ready to receive the lessons more thru love not by fear. that's why the Old Testament God is vengeful, while the New Testament one is a mercyful one. The lessons were taught in appropriate manner to by the time they were needed.
Tha's where the genesis came from. It explains in figure of language more or less how things happened, and his terms are adequated to the knowing of people in that age. Of course man of 7000 years ago hadn't notion of space and light speed and cosmic matter. So they were taught what they should know in terms they could understand. I. E. Man being created out of clay can be classified in the reign of fables, but it's not far from the truth. After all we(our bodies) were formed from the very same juice of matter that formed earth. Simple as that...

 

[chcr]

I always thought they were a separate part of Christianity?

As Alladinsane points out, they predate christianity altogether. They are old testament stuff, but still part of the bible.

Christians aren't supposed to have to follow the laws of Moses (no pork, etc.), yet they have to follow the commandments.

 

[catocom]

Jesus said he didn't come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it.
Meaning basically the sacrifice part. The standard laws will always
apply, there just doesn't have to be sacrifices. (blood, crops, fasting...)

 

[freako104]

It is part from Judahism from where christinism evolved. Judahism is based on 2 main codes. The 10 divine commandments, given by God inspiration to Moses, and the disciplinar laws created by Moses after. These second part, was needed at the time to keep order in a turbulent people. To gain credit it was needed to attribute them a divine origin. A It was needed an image of a severe(?) God to state rerspect and order to rather primitive men. This second part is mainly what Christ has re-formulated. When he came people was ready to receive the lessons more thru love not by fear. that's why the Old Testament God is vengeful, while the New Testament one is a mercyful one. The lessons were taught in appropriate manner to by the time they were needed.
Tha's where the genesis came from. It explains in figure of language more or less how things happened, and his terms are adequated to the knowing of people in that age. Of course man of 7000 years ago hadn't notion of space and light speed and cosmic matter. So they were taught what they should know in terms they could understand. I. E. Man being created out of clay can be classified in the reign of fables, but it's not far from the truth. After all we(our bodies) were formed from the very same juice of matter that formed earth. Simple as that...

thanks for that. Now it makes much more sense. much appreciated

 

[Gotholic]

As you can see population has only accelerated after the second world war. This was known as the "Baby boom". China and the developing world have since added to the population explosion, this gave rise to the one family one baby rule in China.

I'm pretty sure the quote ("There are simply not enough catastrophes in history to keep man's population growth low enough to allow for 100,000 years or more.") ment that by using the formula given, earth's population could not be what it is today without a great catastrophe like the flood. Otherwise, the earth's population would have been much greater then it is now (Evolutionists deny a global flood, which creates a problem for them).

WWII did create a population spurt. But the reason for that was because the men had been away for awhile and then they returned to their wives/girlfriends. Plus, contraception was not as available as it is now. This combination created the "Baby Boom".

Just out of interest, how much of what is said in the bible can be cross referenced.

I'm not sure. But I do know that none of it has been proven 100% wrong.

The Greeks, Romans and Egyptians kept detailed records yet, Herodotus who is known as the Father of history never mentions any of what the bible says (Ed: He is also known as the father of lies, but only because he embellishes stories) The Egyptians noted a slaves uprising about the time of moses, the parting of the red sea isn't noted.

Just because one historian doesn't mention an event does not mean it never took place. As for the parting of the Red Sea, there is a monument that gives credit to what the Bible says. It was a black granite shrine that was discovered in the 1860's which gives an account of a pharaoh and his army pursuing his enemies only to perish at the "Place of the Whirlpool." [James D. Long, The Riddle of The Exodus.]

BTW: Ipuwer mentions the plagues of Egypt...

 

[Lopan]

I'm pretty sure the quote ("There are simply not enough catastrophes in history to keep man's population growth low enough to allow for 100,000 years or more.") ment that by using the formula given, earth's population could not be what it is today without a great catastrophe like the flood. Otherwise, the earth's population would have been much greater then it is now (Evolutionists deny a global flood, which creates a problem for them).

So now your saying there are enough catastrophes? Whereas before you weren't.

Define global. Would this be global relative to what the writers of the old testament knew as the world. Big floods aren't uncommon and one may have covered the middle east or part of it, but lets not call it global.

WWII did create a population spurt. But the reason for that was because the men had been away for awhile and then they returned to their wives/girlfriends. Plus, contraception was not as available as it is now. This combination created the "Baby Boom".

Thats not a reason. Millions of people had died and economies picked up. Condoms were available, all GI's were issued with them.

I'm not sure. But I do know that none of it has been proven 100% wrong.

If I chose to be flippant, I could go 3000 years into the future and ask people to prove that harry potter books were 100% wrong.

Just because one historian doesn't mention an event does not mean it never took place. As for the parting of the Red Sea, there is a monument that gives credit to what the Bible says. It was a black granite shrine that was discovered in the 1860's which gives an account of a pharaoh and his army pursuing his enemies only to perish at the "Place of the Whirlpool." [James D. Long, The Riddle of The Exodus.]

At the place or in the place, Does anyone mention moses?

Herodotus recorded everything in the ancient world. Grachhi to nero also doesn't mention Jesus. I don't doubt Jesus existed I just think he had some good PR people after he died.

BTW: Ipuwer mentions the plagues of Egypt...

I'll have to look that up, but again its all relative. What they consider a plague we may not.
[/quote]

 

[Gotholic]

Christians aren't supposed to have to follow the laws of Moses (no pork, etc.), yet they have to follow the commandments.

There is a reason for that:

“Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, ‘Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him unclean by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean.’ After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. ‘Are you so dull?’ he asked. ‘Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him `unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.’(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: ‘What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean.’” [Mark 7:14-23]

Jesus declared all foods clean...

 

[Gotholic]

So now your saying there are enough catastrophes? Whereas before you weren't.

But I was. Are you paying attention?

The exact sentence you quoted earlier said it. "There are simply not enough catastrophes in history to keep man's population growth low enough to allow for 100,000 years or more."

Define global.

World-wide.

Would this be global relative to what the writers of the old testament knew as the world. Big floods aren't uncommon and one may have covered the middle east or part of it, but lets not call it global.

The flood was global. Here is why:

The need for the Ark

If the Flood were local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and escaped. Traveling just 20 km per day, Noah and his family could have traveled over 3,000 km in six months. God could have simply warned Noah to flee, as He did for Lot in Sodom.

The size of the Ark

If the Flood were local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all the different kinds of land vertebrate animals in the world? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, or only domestic animals, the Ark could have been much smaller.

The need for animals to be on the Ark

If the Flood were local, why did God send the animals to the Ark to escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce those kinds even if they had all died in the local area. Or He could have sent them to a non-flooded region.

The need for birds to be on the Ark

If the Flood were local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range. Birds can fly several hundred kilometers in one day.

The judgment was universal

If the Flood were local, people who did not happen to be living in the vicinity would not have been affected by it. They would have escaped God’s judgment on sin. It boggles the mind to believe that, after all those centuries since creation, no one had migrated to other parts—or that people living on the periphery of such a local flood would not have moved to the adjoining high ground rather than be drowned. Jesus believed that the Flood killed everyone not on the Ark (Matt. 24:37–39).

Of course those who want to believe in a local flood generally say that the world is old and that people were here for many tens of thousands of years before the Flood. If this were the case, it is inconceivable that all the people could have fitted in a localized valley in Mesopotamia, for example, or that they had not migrated further afield as the population grew.

The Flood was a type of the judgment to come

What did Christ mean when He likened the coming world judgment to the judgment of ‘all’ men (Matt. 24:37–39) in the days of Noah? In 2 Peter 3, the coming judgment by fire is likened to the former judgment by water in Noah’s Flood. A partial judgment in Noah’s day would mean a partial judgment to come.

The waters were above the mountains

If the Flood were local, how could the waters rise to 15 cubits (8 meters) above the mountains (Gen. 7:20)? Water seeks its own level. It could not rise to cover the local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.

The duration of the Flood

Noah and company were on the Ark for one year and 10 days (Gen. 7:11, 8:14)—surely an excessive amount of time for any local flood? It was more than seven months before the tops of any mountains became visible. How could they drift around in a local flood for that long without seeing any mountains?

God’s promise broken?

If the Flood were local, God would have repeatedly broken His promise never to send such a Flood again. There have been huge ‘local’ floods in recent times: in Bangladesh, for example, where 80% of that country has been inundated, or Europe in 2002.

All people are descendants of Noah and his family

The genealogies of Adam (Gen. 4:17–26, 5:1–31) and Noah (Gen. 10:1–32) are exclusive—they tell us that all the pre-Flood people came from Adam and all the post-Flood people came from Noah. The descendants of Noah were all living together at Babel and refusing to ‘fill the earth,’ as they had been commanded (Gen. 9:1). So God confused their one language into many and scattered them (Gen. 11:1–9).

There is striking evidence that all peoples on earth have come from Noah, found in the Flood stories from many cultures around the world—North and South America, South Sea Islands, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Japan, China, India, the Middle East, Europe and Africa. Hundreds of such stories have been gathered. The stories closest to the area of dispersion from Babel are nearest in detail to the biblical account—for example, the Gilgamesh epic.

Thats not a reason.

Sure it is.

Millions of people had died and economies picked up. Condoms were available, all GI's were issued with them.

Another world war had just ended and people wanted to settle down. They had condoms, but they didn't have the Pill.

If I chose to be flippant, I could go 3000 years into the future and ask people to prove that harry potter books were 100% wrong.

The Harry Potter books are actually based on some real Wiccan practices. Some of them are actually proven accurate.

Many have tried to prove that the Bible is just a collection of myths. Once, historians ridiculed the Bible for mentioning an ancient race called the Hitties. It was believed that these people never existed. But eventually, archaeological finds proved the Hitties did exist.

At the place or in the place, Does anyone mention moses?

Not to my knowledge. But the reason that there is little or no evidence of a man named Moses in Egypt is probably due to the fact that people were known by many names in Egypt. Moses was also known as Senmut, Tutmoses II, and Hatshepsut Xnem Amen. If I'm not mistaken, it is under those names that gives evidence that there was a Moses in Egypt.

Herodotus recorded everything in the ancient world. Grachhi to nero also doesn't mention Jesus. I don't doubt Jesus existed I just think he had some good PR people after he died.

I could give you various historians that do mention Jesus. But I don't think that is needed here since you already believe that he did exist.

I'll have to look that up, but again its all relative. What they consider a plague we may not.

Oh, it is quite clear they are plagues. Make sure you look into it. I highly recommend the book called The Riddle of Exodus...

 

[Lopan]

Ive read all of your sources and quotes quite a few times and I really couldn't put my finger on what i thought was wrong. On the surface it all seems quite convincing even scientific, but its one source for backup is the bible.

One other thing that bothers me is a lack of timeframes and verifiable conclusions.

This just seems like brainwashing

The problem is not the evidence but the mindset of those looking at the evidence. One geologist testified how he never saw any evidence for the Flood—until, as a Christian, he was convinced from the Bible that the Flood must have been a global cataclysm. Now he sees the evidence everywhere. The Bible talks about people being corrupted in their thinking after turning their backs on God (Romans 1:18ff.) and of people being so spiritually blind that they cannot see the obvious (Acts 28:25–27).

This source treats the situation objectively
Great flood - problems

An excerpt (its quite long but very interesting)

6. Implications of a Flood
A global flood would have produce evidence contrary to the evidence we see.

How do you explain the relative ages of mountains? For example, why weren't the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians during the Flood?

Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. [Johnsen et al, 1992,; Alley et al, 1993] A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?

How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions.

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?

Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time. [Becker & Kromer, 1993; Becker et al, 1991; Stuiver et al, 1986]

References
Alley, R. B., D. A. Meese, C. A. Shuman, A. J. Gow, K.C. Taylor, P. M. Grootes, J. W. C. White, M. Ram, E. W. Waddington, P. A. Mayewski, & G. A. Zielinski, 1993. Abrupt increase in Greenland snow accumulation at the end of the Younger Dryas event. Nature 362: 527-529.

Becker, B. & Kromer, B., 1993. The continental tree-ring record - absolute chronology, C-14 calibration and climatic-change at 11 KA. Palaeogeography Palaeoclimatology Palaeoecology, 103 (1-2): 67-71.

Becker, B., Kromer, B. & Trimborn, P., 1991. A stable-isotope tree-ring timescale of the late glacial Holocene boundary. Nature 353 (6345): 647-649.

Johnsen, S. J., H. B. Clausen, W. Dansgaard, K. Fuhrer, N. Gundestrap, C. U. Hammer, P. Iversen, J. Jouzel, B. Stauffer, & J. P. Steffensen, 1992. Irregular glacial interstadials recorded in a new Greenland ice core. Nature 359: 311-313.

Stuiver, Minze, et al, 1986. Radiocarbon age calibration back to 13,300 years BP and the 14 C age matching of the German Oak and US bristlecone pine chronologies. IN: Calibration issue / Stuiver, Minze, et al., Radiocarbon 28(2B): 969-979.

Gotholic you will notice the difference in presentation.

 

[freako104]

Wasnt the Flood taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh?

 

[chcr]

Wasnt the Flood taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh?

Depends on what you believe, freak. If you opt for literal biblical interpretation, then no, it wasn't. If you look for historical corroboration then it seems to be the most likely source. You have to decide for yourself what you do or can accept. I personally find the similarities between the stories to compelling too dismiss (especially given there isn't enough water on the planet to flood the entire planet). I'm reasonbly certain that there are intelligent, respected, longstanding members of this board who absolutely believe that god created the flood in some supernatural way and that the story of Noah as written in the bible is the literal truth. IMO, most of the bible is taken from older myths. That's my opinion though; others should make up their own minds (note that clearly some have ).

 

[freako104]

you know well enough that I do not take the Bible literally. I tend to go with the historical facts or at least what is known. I received your PM. Ill contact you a little bit later on this when I can more easily ask the questions I need to ask but I do thank you for helping me understand a lot of this

 

[Gotholic]

Ive read all of your sources and quotes quite a few times and I really couldn't put my finger on what i thought was wrong. On the surface it all seems quite convincing even scientific, but its one source for backup is the bible.

You said that the biblical writers didn't mean a global flood. I simply gave evidence that was related to the Bible that supports that the biblical writers did mean a global flood.

One other thing that bothers me is a lack of timeframes and verifiable conclusions.

This just seems like brainwashing


This source treats the situation objectively
Great flood - problems

An excerpt (its quite long but very interesting)



Gotholic you will notice the difference in presentation.

Now you are shifting your stance from "the biblical writers didn't mean a global flood" to "there isn't much scientific evidence for a global flood." I think I have proven the former wrong. As for the latter, I think the door can swing both ways. There is scientific evidence for a global food by what has been found. But there is a lack of evidence for a global flood by what has not been found...

 

[Gotholic]

Wasnt the Flood taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh?

I believe it was the other way around. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a distortion of the Genesis account.

There is a very interesting article on this subject, which I think you should read. It explains why the Genesis account is the original. It can be found here...

 

[chcr]

There is scientific evidence for a global food by what has been found. But there is a lack of evidence for a global flood by what has not been found...

Umm... sense, I'm looking for sense in this sentence and I just can't find it...

That's okay though, I'm sure you know what you mean.

And what "scientific evidence" really shows is that there is quite simply not enough water.

 

[freako104]

I believe it was the other way around. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a distortion of the Genesis account.

There is a very interesting article on this subject, which I think you should read. It explains why the Genesis account is the original. It can be found here...

Interesting. I had been told Gilgamesh came first. As Chcr has said though in the past as well as others, history is written by the victor so some things like that get lost or whatever. interesting tho.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Umm... sense, I'm looking for sense in this sentence and I just can't find it...

That's okay though, I'm sure you know what you mean.

And what "scientific evidence" really shows is that there is quite simply not enough water.

I beg to differ. There's plenty of water to be found to flood the globe...all it takes is a bit of heat, and a large enough projectile.