In a perfect world
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Gotnolegs
Active Member
Gato_Solo said:
How do you know they were captured whilst fighting? Because your government told you? Does it not scare you that using this as precedent any country could now imprison any US citizen without trial for as long as they wanted just so long as they say "they are a threat to our security"?
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Gotnolegs said:
While I, personally wasn't there for each and every capture, I have friends who helped get them out of the country and into Gitmo, a brother who is in the army and spent some time there, and word-of-mouth from several others who, although I don't know well, I'm aquainted with. Most of those folks were captured while actively fighting the US, or aiding those doing the fighting. As far as your question about US citizens goes...If they are aiding and abetting the enemy, and are in a foreign country just to do that, then they ought to lose their citizenship for a start.
And to also answer your first question with my own take...How do you know that they weren't captured whilst fighting?
Gotnolegs
Active Member
Gato_Solo said:While I, personally wasn't there for each and every capture, I have friends who helped get them out of the country and into Gitmo, a brother who is in the army and spent some time there, and word-of-mouth from several others who, although I don't know well, I'm aquainted with. Most of those folks were captured while actively fighting the US, or aiding those doing the fighting. As far as your question about US citizens goes...If they are aiding and abetting the enemy, and are in a foreign country just to do that, then they ought to lose their citizenship for a start.
And to also answer your first question with my own take...How do you know that they weren't captured whilst fighting?
So you would be happy for the government of... lets say Saudi Arabia to hold US citizens without trial for an indefinite period of time as long as they told you that it was because the Saudi government saw them as a security risk? Of course you wouldn't want them to supply any evidence of this, you'd just take their word.
In answer to your question I have no idea where they were captured, what they were doing and why they were doing it. That is exactly my point. I have tried to find out, I have asked US citizens who are convinced they did what Bush claims they did and the only justification for this is that he said so and so it must be true.
So lets assume that they were indeed fighting against their own country, is it not that country's right to punish them as it sees fit?
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Gotnolegs said:
Actually, you're comparing apples to oranges here, and I'll explain why.
1. If US citizens in Saudi Arabia posed a security threat, and were arrested by Saudi authorities and held without some kind of probable cause, then I'd be upset. If they were suspected (probable cause) of plotting to blow up a building, kill Saudi nationals, or otherwise commit some sort of mayhem, then they get what they deserve. It happens more often than you think, but, here in the US, we figure that if they (those arrested) were stupid enough to get themselves into trouble, then whatever happens, happens. I'm kind of harsh on the personal responsibility part of life. There are no such people as innocent by-standers. If you're there, and you're not aiding one side or the other, then you're in the way of both sides, and need to remove yourself before the problems start.
2. As for any 'evidence' you ask for, some of it has been marked 'classified', and some of it is based on the testimony of others. Some may even be made up.
Whom did you speak to on this matter? The average 'Joe' on the street, or someone who participated in either the arrest, transport, et al of the prisoner? You also state that you have no idea of the where, how, or when those folks were captured. If they weren't captured on UK soil, then you're pretty much SOL. I hate to say it that way, but, once again, it comes down to personal responsibility. Not every country has the same laws, and not every country enforces laws the same way.3. Nice try, but they weren't actively attacking the armed forces of the UK. They were actively fighting the armed forces of the US. If I go to England as a private citizen and kill an RAF officer, you can bet I'd be in jail in the UK.
Gotnolegs said:
Since these claims are not outlandish & few, if any, of us were there, we must make a choice-to believe or not. It's not a big deal. Should evidence present itself (as it sometimes does) that what we're told & what is are not correlating, we will look into it further.
As for your SA question...happy is a bad adjective to use but sure, they have the right & obligation to protect their country-from Saudis, Americans, British, Chileans or whomever. Our government has an obligation to make sure they are treated humanely & legally. We can demand all day but if the other gov't doesn't want to turn over our people then we're S.O.L.
Were you this outspoken & demanding of the Brezhnev controlled government? How about Pinochet's? Papa Doc?
Hell, lets look at today-where is your outrage & moral indignation over Castro or Kim Jung Il? Hu Jintu, Mugabe, Al-Bashir, Abdullah? See GNL, whether you like it or not, the United States makes the world a safer & more free place. Some people don't play well with others & need to be punished (not rehabilitated or repatriated). There are several thousand Ameicans that fit that bill. They are in prison. Apparently sometimes we must do your governments job too.
freako104
Well-Known Member
The Other One said:
I've been waiting for 'sick and twisted'....
Interesting that while claiming to be from D.C., where the Pentagon was rammed by a Muslim at the controls of a jetliner (did you see the slo-mo of the jet disintegrating into the wall----pretty far fucking out, dude---wasn't it cool, eh? You've probably got the still shot of it framed--am I right?) your sympathies lie with bin Laden and crew. Please prove me wrong: was it the "They are hateful, jealous, and destructive. Their only contribution to world history has been death, oppression, fear, and terror. They have no capacity to create." part, or the "That the U.S. is a success as a civilization makes Muslims look like primitive and fanatical failures."---that is inaccurate?---and back it up if you can.
1.the Pentagon is not in DC but Arlington in Va which is a suburb of DC.
2.they have their reasons to hate us. if you studied Islam rather that the bullshit(read Muhammeds life) it is not violent. at all. you are juding the entire race based on a few. why not do that with other groups?
3. our success hasnt made them look like prmitive fanatical failures. jsut different again although, as much as I hate to say this cause it will make me sound racist, our success has made them jealous.
now do us all a favour
freako104
Well-Known Member
that is such bullshit. if you soemone hates you for something you now have teh right to kill them? WTF? if thats the case ive got some people who hate me and I am sure of that. i guess i am justified in killing them. fuck Mark you know there is a shitload of countries who hate us. I guess its ok to wipe them out.
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
freako104 said:
So it's okay for them to hate us, but not okay for us to hate them? Sorry, freako, but that argument stinks of masochism. Nobody has a right to kill innocent people. Nobody has a right to non-interference when innocents are killed. I can see where you disagree with The Other One, but don't lose your perspective.
freako104
Well-Known Member
i didnt say we couldnt hate them gato. but I dindt like how gonz said to wipe them off the face of teh earth. and i was pointing out they have a reason to have hated us before we hated them. I didnt say we cant hate them by any means. I dont like what they did to us on 9/11 and i dont like teh terroristattacks in the ME. but in their mind it was justified.
Oh holy Christ. We're now fighting over who has the right to hate whom first?
Here's a proposition.
If you hate us. So what, Go away & leave us alone. We'll leave you alone. If you harm any person or damage any property of ours, you're toast.
Is that fair?
reason to hate us first
Here's a proposition.
If you hate us. So what, Go away & leave us alone. We'll leave you alone. If you harm any person or damage any property of ours, you're toast.
Is that fair?
reason to hate us first
freako104
Well-Known Member
Gonz said:Oh holy Christ. We're now fighting over who has the right to hate whom first?
Here's a proposition.
If you hate us. So what, Go away & leave us alone. We'll leave you alone. If you harm any person or damage any property of ours, you're toast.
Is that fair?
reason to hate us first
yes that is fair by me. as far as them haivng reason to hate us first look at what we did to them in the past and then tell me its laughable
Thulsa Doom
New Member
The Other One said:
oh boy so if I keep pressing this button do you keep going more and more off the deep end? Now because I make an argument against your comically niave and racist rantings Im a foreign agent who lies about being from the DC area and is actually in cahoots with Osama? Wow. So if I say there are actually good and smart and noble muslims in the world will you try to turn me into satan? Please?? Id like to see that one. Good for another 5 minute belly laugh at least.
Once again I love the irony of a fool trying to paint an entire set of people as low life scum bag terrorists thus mimicking the same thinking the true low life scum bag terrorists themselves use to paint US (oh sorry I said “US” didn’t I! Oh dear. How DARE I include myself in the same group that includes YOURSELF when apparently I am not American and obviously live in some flea bit middle eastern sewer where nobody knows how to count higher then three. Or if I AM in the US then its quite clear I was smuggled in as a baby through my mothers birth canal in a nefarious plot to undermine the delusional anti-foreign wackos such as yourself who like to spout pathetically obvious and wholly ridiculous racial and cultural hate propoganda to make themselves feel special. Silly me.)
Hmm last time I checked the people of the middle east were the first to invent little things like say LAWS and MATHEMATICS (in fact they invented the concept of numbers now that you mention it) and AGRICULTURE and WRITING. Then theres minor things like the domestication of animals, the first cities, the first states. Ok so they got lucky a few times but that’s not very CREATIVE as you say. Oh wait! I forgot to mention architecture. Yeah they invented that. And metallurgy. Yeah those damn towel heads were the first to come up with that one too. Darn. Oh! And speaking of metallurgy they were the first to master the creation of alloys. Oh big deal we didn’t need the bronze age anyway. And iron is overrated eh? And the wheel well that was easy. Anyone could have come up with that. Glass isn’t worth mentioning either of course. I mean the stuff breaks so easily. And don’t get me started on the alphabet. I mean even first graders know that.
Wow look at all that. Pretty creative wouldn’t you say? Got any more softballs you wanna lob my way? Of course whats really interesting is that a small band of fanatical brain washed zealots who happen to also be of middle eastern decent and decide they feel a need to lash out violently against western culture in the mistaken belief that its mandated so in the warped version of the religion they subscribe to, can, in your eyes, represent ALL the people of the middle east and can instantly wipe out ALL the accomplishments said people have made in the past 10,000 years. Quite an accomplishment. Seems the terrorists have been perfectly successful in their aims with YOU. They have created someone who would just assume paint ALL muslims and middle easterners with the same racist hateful bigoted thinking. You have played right into their hands very well in becoming the “THEM” that they need so badly in their US vs. THEM thinking. Or did you have these feelings about other cultures all along?