In a perfect world

Gonz said:
Hell, lets look at today-where is your outrage & moral indignation over Castro or Kim Jung Il? Hu Jintu, Mugabe, Al-Bashir, Abdullah?
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I have very strong opinions on pretty much all of these people, but unlike you I try and stick to the facts of the subject at hand and not change the subject when I am proven wrong.
 
Gonz said:
That is what is killing us. If you wish to partake in the continuance of (fill in respective country) culture, then don't move here.

America has its own culture. Move here & adapt because trying to force us to adapt to yours is getting out of hand. We'll give you a weekend in the summer to do those special things. We're not asking you to throw away your (fill in special item here).

By the way, if your culture & homeland was so special WHY DID YOU LEAVE IT?
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Are you talking to me? What have you been smoking exactly. When did I leave my homeland? And which homeland is that Gonz? Maryland or Virginia? Ok I admit I lived in New York too for a few years in college. Silly me. Im not really sure why you quoted me on this as if I was someone else.
 
freako104 said:
well there is even threads on Palestine and its history in here. if you wish it I will dig them up.
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Please. The mere fact that Israel exists, and the Palestinians can't do anything about is is not justification for the mass murder of civilians, nor is it reason enough to hate..especially when those who preach such crap aren't even from 'Palestine'. Don't go there...it's a losing battle.
 
Gato_Solo said:
So that's 3 out of how many? And all of them UK citizens? If this pans out, then it still won't change the fact that most of those in Gitmo are dangerous. Also...where did the Guardian get their information?
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Firstly I am talking about the UK citizens you are illegally holding.

Secondly my point is that just because your government says something is so does not mean it is. Are they dangerous? Possibly, possibly not. Until they are given a fair trial we will never know. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Isn't that one of the very basic human rights that the US claims to uphold?

I can give you many more sources if you want. It does of course make it difficult if I have to identify all the sources for my sources and you are allowed to use some mate who is in the army as a valid source but I'll try.
 
Thulsa Doom said:
Are you talking to me? What have you been smoking exactly. When did I leave my homeland? And which homeland is that Gonz? Maryland or Virginia? Ok I admit I lived in New York too for a few years in college. Silly me. Im not really sure why you quoted me on this as if I was someone else.
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I never said you left your homeland. Your complaing about diversity & cultures required an adequate response to show how ridiculous that argument is.
 
Gotnolegs said:
Firstly I am talking about the UK citizens you are illegally holding.

Secondly my point is that just because your government says something is so does not mean it is. Are they dangerous? Possibly, possibly not. Until they are given a fair trial we will never no. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Isn't that one of the very basic human rights that the US claims to uphold?

I can give you many more sources if you want. It does of course make it difficult if I have to identify all the sources for my sources and you are allowed to use some mate who is in the army as a valid source but I'll try.
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I never said that everything my government said, or did, was absolutely above-board. As to the Guardian, I understand that newspaper is as biased against the US in general, and our current president in particular, as the Boston Tea Party was to British taxation. Fact is that I was in the AOR, and so were the folks I use as sources. I trust them...not my government. I rely on them...not my government.

Innocent until Proven Guilty is a necessary principal. Unfortunately, it doesn't work in a war. You should know that. There is no due process when someone shoots at you, and there is no lawyer screaming 'objection' when you shoot back.

Finally...

The prisoners being held at Gitmo are getting better care than they would if they'd stayed in Afghanistan. Some will argue that there are those that are depressed, some are suicidal, and some are being held unjustly. I'll say this much...jail is supposed to remove you from your freedom, causing depression. Depression can lead to 2 things. A desire for self-improvement (rarely) and, in this setting, rehabilitation, or suicidal feelings (more rare). The ones being held unjustly are being slowly released and sent back to whence they came.

As for some of your citizens being released...
 
Gato_Solo said:
I never said that everything my government said, or did, was absolutely above-board. As to the Guardian, I understand that newspaper is as biased against the US in general, and our current president in particular, as the Boston Tea Party was to British taxation. Fact is that I was in the AOR, and so were the folks I use as sources. I trust them...not my government. I rely on them...not my government.

Innocent until Proven Guilty is a necessary principal. Unfortunately, it doesn't work in a war. You should know that. There is no due process when someone shoots at you, and there is no lawyer screaming 'objection' when you shoot back.

Finally...

The prisoners being held at Gitmo are getting better care than they would if they'd stayed in Afghanistan. Some will argue that there are those that are depressed, some are suicidal, and some are being held unjustly. I'll say this much...jail is supposed to remove you from your freedom, causing depression. Depression can lead to 2 things. A desire for self-improvement (rarely) and, in this setting, rehabilitation, or suicidal feelings (more rare). The ones being held unjustly are being slowly released and sent back to whence they came.

As for some of your citizens being released...
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This would be absolutely fine if the prisoners were either declared POWs and then accorded treatment in line with the GC or charged with criminal activity and held awaiting trial. As neither of these has happened the only assumption I can draw is that either the US does not care about the rights of anyone who is not in complete agreement with them or the people in question did not do the things we are told they did.

If you read the sources I posted you will see that there is some question over whether the captives were indeed combatants, I am fairly sure that even if they were they are no longer and so they can be charged yes?

As to the validity of the guardian, what are the political views of the people you use as sources? Who did they vote for? What do they feel about the ongoing conflict? How do they feel about muslims? Do they have any prejudices? Do they hold any political bias? Can we be assured that their opinions and comments are completely objective?
 
pssssttttt, freako, I am not a good source to use when wishing to prove Palestines innocence

GO ISRAEL!!!!
 
i wasnt using you to prove Palestines innocence. I was using it to show the history and show why they hate us
 
Gotnolegs said:
Sorry missed this bit.

This is exactly my point. It is the UKs right to punish it's citizens for what could in theory be classed as treason if they are tried and convicted. The difference I am sure you will have noticed is that they MAY STAND TRIAL on their return to the UK. The were never tried before their imprisonment by the US.
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True, it's a thorny fence we sit upon, but it's a fence none-the-less. Logic dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Our government, OTOH, dictates that the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. There are times, however, when action, no matter how repulsive, must be taken. If you look back at earlier posts I've made, in different threads, you'll see that, in a majority of cases, I, too, think the detainees should be charged or freed. Not because your government is an ally, or because there is some kind of prejudgement going on, nor even because I think the worlds a jolly-good place. I said so because I think most of them have learned that we (the west) are not as bad as they've been told. In most of the countries where the detainees are from, they'd be either dead, or badly disfigured. That's the life they grew up with, and the laws that they are familiar with. What I object to is mainly this. Fr the past 30 to 40 years, our European allies have complained that the US did nothing to stop or prevent terrorism. In the first World Trade Center bombing, where a bomb was detonated in a parking garage below ground, the US started taking an interest in ME affairs like never before. 10 years later, after several peace "road maps" were violated by both Israelis and Palastinians alike (mostly Palastinians), we had 2 aircraft crash into buildings in our most populous city, killing approximately 3200 people. We took umbrage at this, and attacked the country harboring the terrorist organization responsible. We also attacked a seperate country (Iraq, okay Squiggy?) simply because we thought their leader was an ass, and had been belligerent. During these actions, we scooped up quite a few folks who we thought were either terrorists, enemy combatants, or those who aid and abet the former. Now, all of a sudden, when the US is finally fully involved in 'counter-terrorist' actions, the rest of the world is whining about how we're going about it. Guess what. You've been asking for just such a response for years, so get over it. I'm sorry your citizens got captured in enemy territory, while actively fighting the US, aiding and abetting terrorists, or just plain being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If they didn't know the risks involved by pulling out a tigers whiskers, then maybe they should've just stayed home and complained like everybody else. I've met quite a few Brits, Aussies, and even Canadians who'd agree with me. Don't cry 'human rights' now, when you, yourselves, were letting this whole thing blow up out of proportion. Don't want out help? Leave us alone. It's that simple, really. Usama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Yassir Arafat, Kim Jong Il, Fidel Castro, et al. How many are left? How many are yanking the tigers whiskers?

To sum it all up...Be careful what you wish for.
 
You've been asking for just such a response for years, so get over it. I'm sorry your citizens got captured in enemy territory, while *slightly modified* fighting imagined economic enemies, aiding and abetting terrorists, or just plain being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If they didn't know the risks involved by pulling out a tigers whiskers, then maybe they should've just stayed home and complained like everybody else. I've met quite a few Brits, Aussies, and even Canadians who'd agree with me. Don't cry 'human rights' now, when you, yourselves, were letting this whole thing blow up out of proportion. Don't want out help? Leave us alone. It's that simple, really.
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o_O

If we're goin' for old cliches here to make our points...People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
 
Leslie said:
o_O

If we're goin' for old cliches here to make our points...People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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Dear Leslie. You, of all people, should know that I'm not casting stones about carelessly. As for our 'imagined economic enemy', who, pray-tell, would that be?
 
um...which administration is it again? there've been so many "enemies" it's hard to keep track
 
Leslie said:
um...which administration is it again? there've been so many "enemies" it's hard to keep track
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Exactly my point, my love. If you want to argue 'economic' enemies (our current is China ;) ), then I think we'll have to agree that everybody deserves an equal chance at life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (as long as it doesn't interfere with someone elses life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness). My main point in my posts in this thread are that, for the past 40 years, Europe has been asking the US to do something about terrorism, and to respond to the world view about how terrorism should be dealt with. For the past 20 years, the US has been trying a diplomatic solution to the whole mess (which led to 9/11) while still backing Israel. Our diplomacy failed, our country was attacked by a group that has members and support from several nationalities of people who share a common religion. We captured some, killed others, and toppled 2 governments in the interim, and, all the while, our European allies who, for so long asked us to do something, are now whining about what we're doing.
 
You know Gato, I agree with what you said about Europe. They wanted us to do something and when we did they whined about it. I think however, that what led to 9/11 (and other things) is not so much that diplomacy failed as that the diplomatic policy changes every four or eight years. I think this clearly led directly to the first Gulf War. I don't think most countries understand it on a gut level, even if they do realize it intellectually. Just my opinion, mind you, but if I had been running a country for twenty years and in the space of one a country I thought had been an ally (at least under the table) suddenly changed their policy 180 degrees, I'd be confused.
 
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