Indoctrination 101

[Gotholic]

Well the song you must understand was supposed to be in Judas' perspective at the time. I believe personally that at VERY least, if Jesus isn't a myth entirely, (and I think he was real) he was of the divine. But so are all of us! The exception perhaps being sociopaths. That is not to say that Jesus wasn't closer and more true to what "God" actually is, than any man that ever walked this earth, but as I see it is not mine to know. I can find almost no fault with his teachings. The thing was, if he was indeed the most Godly man to walk the earth, he was still also just a man! That is what the Bible says was the point. God had sent a begotten son to live as a man.

I can find a lot of fault with the interpretations of the Bible that powerful men have imposed on it over the years. That does NOT mean that the Bible is a complete fiction novel, but I in NO way believe is is even possible that it could be the literal and infallible word of God.

I think you might have misunderstood. Jesus claimed to actually be God Incarnate, not "godly".

"Thereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him: because he did not only break the Sabbath, but also he said God was his father, making himself equal to God." (John 5:18)

"Jesus said to them, Amen, amen I say to you, before that Abraham was made, I am." (John 8:58)

"Thomas answered, and said to him, My Lord, and my God." (John 20:28)

"Who when he was in the form of God, thought it no robbery, himself to be equal to God". (Philippians 2:6)

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith our Lord God, which is, and which was, and which shall come, the omnipotent." (Revelations 1:8)

"And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he put his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not. *I am the first and the last" (Revelations 1:17)

"And to the Angel of the Church of Smyrna write, Thus saith *the first and the last, who was dead, and liveth" (Revelations 2:8)

"Behold I come quickly. and my reward is with me, *to render to every man vaccording to his works, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." (Revelations 22:12-13)

Either he was what he claimed to be, or a madman.

 

[randomJACKASS]

Semantics and likely inaccurate accounts...

Meh!

 

[randomJACKASS]

Quote me "King James" stuff all day, King James' people just bent things to fit their political views. It's just naive to think different. Perhaps much is still as it was, but much was manipulated to support politics.

 

[catocom]

If a person 'believes' something, then it's Real to them.
That's where faith comes in.

What you have faith in, ultimately becomes your religion.

 

[randomJACKASS]

If a person 'believes' something, then it's Real to them.
That's where faith comes in.

What you have faith in, ultimately becomes your religion.

Well there is a hell of a lot more good sense teaching in the Bible than not, but there are also historical accounts and things that if they are original and inspired they are very easy for evil to manipulate the interpretations.

I only know when we humans claim we are 100% right, and we believe this, and we condemn others who are not like we are....Well in my opinions that is the very definition of false pride and a good start on evil itself.

 

[catocom]

yep, it says in the book I believe, narrow is the way, and few there be that find it.

 

[2minkey]

I think you might have misunderstood. Jesus claimed to actually be God Incarnate, not "godly". et cetera.

yeah, but how do the tooth faerie and santa fit in? i really like santa. the tooth faerie... not so much. i think he listens to the cure.

 

[catocom]

"money money mooooney, money..."

seems to me that it's hard to indoctrinate if you let up any on it.
imo That is more the objective in the following story.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...ool-year-dire-economic-effects-critics-claim/

 

[ResearchMonkey]

"money money mooooney, money..."

seems to me that it's hard to indoctrinate if you let up any on it.
imo That is more the objective in the following story.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...ool-year-dire-economic-effects-critics-claim/

Can't wait to see what the teacher unions have to say about about losing their summer vacations.

 

[MrBishop]

"money money mooooney, money..."

seems to me that it's hard to indoctrinate if you let up any on it.
imo That is more the objective in the following story.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...ool-year-dire-economic-effects-critics-claim/

By all means...make the school year shorter, then. Who needs education when your kids could be working at a mall earning minimum wage instead...or going on all those all-important trips to Disney or somewhere in Europe.

 

[catocom]

imo, don't need shorter, longer, or cut out.
There has been a working system for some time.

That's not the main problem.

what about vacation time for workers?
guess that's next maybe?

actually I think I learned more in summer vacation, than most of the time in school.

Want China? Move there.

 

[Gotholic]

Semantics and likely inaccurate accounts...

Meh!

You seem to be intellectually dishonest with yourself. It is quite clear what he said. If you read those passages in context then you will find that the Jews were going to kill him for what he said. Also, the early Church Fathers understood Jesus being God Incarnate as well.

Quote me "King James" stuff all day, King James' people just bent things to fit their political views. It's just naive to think different. Perhaps much is still as it was, but much was manipulated to support politics.

You are correct. However, I do not use the "King James" version. I use the original Douay-Rheims bible which predates the King James. Unfortunately, you cannot find the original online (there are various versions that claim to be the authentic version but are not).

 

[randomJACKASS]

You seem to be intellectually dishonest with yourself. It is quite clear what he said. If you read those passages in context then you will find that the Jews were going to kill him for what he said. Also, the early Church Fathers understood Jesus being God Incarnate as well.



You are correct. However, I do not use the "King James" version. I use the original Douay-Rheims bible which predates the King James. Unfortunately, you cannot find the original online (there are various versions that claim to be the authentic version but are not).

Quote me any fucking thing you like, it's all suspect. Give me your opinions all you like and they are still opinions, was there a real point here?

Are you a "christian" is that it? Or are you so anti Christian" you think only a fruitcake would say the things he did? I really don't know where you are coming from, but it has no bearing at all on my beliefs, and never will. Just curious is all....

 

[Gotholic]

Quote me any fucking thing you like, it's all suspect. Give me your opinions all you like and they are still opinions, was there a real point here?

Are you a "christian" is that it? Or are you so anti Christian" you think only a fruitcake would say the things he did? I really don't know where you are coming from, but it has no bearing at all on my beliefs, and never will. Just curious is all....

There is no need to get hostile. Just be chill.

The point I am trying to make is...well, I think C.S. Lewis said it best:

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

 

[randomJACKASS]

There is no need to get hostile. Just be chill.

The point I am trying to make is...well, I think C.S. Lewis said it best:

First off, that is your imagined hostility that you falsely read from me, if you knew me at all, you'd know better. There was no hostility here. Secondly, you really have no concept of what I am trying to say if you take it to mean:

....but I don’t accept His claim to be God....

And that being the case, I think you really would have a very hard time understanding my feeling on it as I know it would almost certainly conflict with what I have seen of what you are trying to convey, but that is OK. I think my beliefs and philosophies are such that as soon as you began to hear you would misinterpret and close your mind, just like you seem to have in this instance.

Is there really anything more to discuss? Whether you or anyone else admits it or not in my belief, we are all loosely definable as agnostics. That is unless you attend barbecues and social events with the father son and holy ghost in attendance and you know them personally, and can introduce us?

We can have our beliefs, and that is OK, but nobody can definitively say, they know 100% that they are right. They may think so, but it's a delusion.

I will put it this way, as best I can. I am in AA and NA which asks one to believe in God as one understands him. Many, myself included use the acronym "Good Orderly Direction". What I have seen in my own experience is many people of all faiths, and many people of no religion at all clearly seem to "get it". They become more consciously spiritual and have a relationsship with "G.O.D." or the infinite, or whatever you want to call it. In my experience it only takes a willingness to believe and "act as if". I have seen miracles happen in the lives of all these people. There is no way in hell you can convince me that Christianity is is the only path to God and I feel if I wished to I could make a very good case for why I am right about that.

The point is, that while my belief in this area is VERY strong and that my faith works for me and I feel absolutely convinced of it, in an intellectual sense I can't say I "know" in any absolute sens, I only know I have my faith and it works in my life very well. You may have yours, it may work for you, and it may differ from mine, but can you really say with absolute certainty that either one of us wrong?

I'd personally think not!

 

[randomJACKASS]

Besides, whatever religion or hokey set of beliefs you have, means very little compared to what you do, how you treat others and live your life. It never ceases to amaze me how some idiots think they can "confess Jesus" then just go right out and do whatever the fuck they feel like cuz they are saved and forgiven.

 

[Gotholic]

First off, that is your imagined hostility that you falsely read from me, if you knew me at all, you'd know better. There was no hostility here.

You started to use profanity in your conversation with me which shows a lack of charity and a sign of hostility. You did not use profanity at me, however, if you just drop it altogether (as should everyone) you can see how much more respectable and dignified your posts can be by that alone.

Secondly, you really have no concept of what I am trying to say if you take it to mean:



And that being the case, I think you really would have a very hard time understanding my feeling on it as I know it would almost certainly conflict with what I have seen of what you are trying to convey, but that is OK. I think my beliefs and philosophies are such that as soon as you began to hear you would misinterpret and close your mind, just like you seem to have in this instance.

You quoted a song that implies a denial of Jesus' divinity - you even highlighted that part in red for emphasis on how strongly you believed it. I then respond by saying either Jesus was God as he claimed to be or a madman. You then respond that you believe at the very least he was divine but as divine as a common person but perhaps more truer to God, however, you later admit even if he was the most godly man to walk the earth, he was just a man. I then respond how Jesus was not just a man but claimed to be God Incarnate. You then dismiss what I present to you. Now, you say you are not denying that he did claim to be God and accept it.

Did I get anything wrong? Feel free to correct me.

Is there really anything more to discuss? Whether you or anyone else admits it or not in my belief, we are all loosely definable as agnostics. That is unless you attend barbecues and social events with the father son and holy ghost in attendance and you know them personally, and can introduce us?

We can have our beliefs, and that is OK, but nobody can definitively say, they know 100% that they are right. They may think so, but it's a delusion.

I understand what you mean.

I will put it this way, as best I can. I am in AA and NA which asks one to believe in God as one understands him. Many, myself included use the acronym "Good Orderly Direction". What I have seen in my own experience is many people of all faiths, and many people of no religion at all clearly seem to "get it". They become more consciously spiritual and have a relationsship with "G.O.D." or the infinite, or whatever you want to call it. In my experience it only takes a willingness to believe and "act as if". I have seen miracles happen in the lives of all these people. There is no way in hell you can convince me that Christianity is is the only path to God and I feel if I wished to I could make a very good case for why I am right about that.

You might believe that. However, according to Jesus he is the only way.

"Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the verity, and the life. no man cometh to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

The point is, that while my belief in this area is VERY strong and that my faith works for me and I feel absolutely convinced of it, in an intellectual sense I can't say I "know" in any absolute sens, I only know I have my faith and it works in my life very well. You may have yours, it may work for you, and it may differ from mine, but can you really say with absolute certainty that either one of us wrong?

I'd personally think not!

I understand, however, what you believe (e.g., Christianity is not the only path to God) is incompatible with what Jesus said.

Besides, whatever religion or hokey set of beliefs you have, means very little compared to what you do, how you treat others and live your life. It never ceases to amaze me how some idiots think they can "confess Jesus" then just go right out and do whatever the fuck they feel like cuz they are saved and forgiven.

I agree. If one does not have a contrite heart he will not be forgiven. It is people like whom you mentioned that have inspired Anton LaVey. Also, I can admit that sometimes an atheist gazing at the starlit sky is closer to God than a Christian is attending Mass.

 

[randomJACKASS]

See this is the problem. What I say means something completely different under your interpretation You assume to know what I am getting at, and you don't, you really don't....

You essentially impose your beliefs as the facts, and seek your own misunderstandings and interpretations of my beliefs, based on your own biases and preconceived notions. This way I am wrong and you are superior in your way.

There is nothing more to say. You are obviously not going to even try to understand what I am saying, so I have better things to do with my time.

Enjoy your religion and your sense of superiority and being "right". Judge others and condemn them to hell and damnation as you see fit, for not meeting up to what you think is the truth.

You can interpret things any way you like, for my part in my heart, I feel I know better than that (in a 99% sense in any case). Personal experience tells me modern Christianity tries to put go into a box that it doesn't fit in. Personal experience shows me Christianity is not the "one true path" although some find the god that is the love and connectedness of all things through it. I have just seen too much real life evidence to the contrary. Modern day Christianity often really has quite little to do with the teachings of Jesus.

I really have just completely lost interest. I am quite comfortable with my spirituality, and quite confident that it is what is right and best for me. You are not going to "show me" or evangelize me, so find something more constructive to do please.

 

[spike]

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

I would disagree with C.S.'s logic here. It is certainly possible that Jesus could have been a bit loony and delusional and still a revolutionary thinker. Right on a lot of things, wrong on some others.

Many many revolutionary thinkers have been more than a little crazy. Simply put, the idea that Jesus couldn't have been crazy and still a great moral teacher is irrational.

A search on "Jesus was insane" brings up some compelling evidence. The first one being this. The arguments are fairly sound but I some of the points transcend this particular discussion. For instance his stance on possessions and turning the other cheek would not be compatible with rich christian warhawks.

 

[catocom]

Jesus IS.