SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
Didn't know I had any.
Ball's back in your court. The class awaits your response.
Ball's back in your court. The class awaits your response.
Little Mosque On The Prairie
- Thread starter SouthernN'Proud
- Start date
spike
New Member
Obviously you have some prejudice against muslims and have even previously stated that they shouldn't be elected to office. So where does the bigotry come from?
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
spike
New Member
Actually I asked my question first. Go check.
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
Done. No time for children.
spike
New Member
Post 51 coming before 53 was just too much for you to handle?
First of all, many Christians have denounced Fred Phelps.
There are many Christians like Fred Phelps too. The Pope cannot comment on them all individually. However, if Phelps was Catholic, he would already have been dealt with a long time ago.
The Crusades is one of the most misunderstood events in European history.
The Crusades was a defensive war. It was a response to Muslim conquest. It was no more of an offensive action than the U.S. invasion of Normandy.
While some immoral acts were done through the Crusades, which where condemned by the Church, it in no way negates the just cause of the war.
spike
New Member
The arguement some are making here says that since the pope is a christian and does not speak out against Phelps he must agree with him.
It'd be pretty hard to make an arguement that all the crusades were defensive or had nothing to do with taking Jerusalem.
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
You, anyway...
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Anyway...this clown left Australia for Lebanon to stir up some shit. Is what he 'preaches' covered under Freedom of Speech? To a degree, yes. Where does it cross the line? If someone he preaches to decides to put a little action to what he's saying. Then he may become, according to US law, an accessory before the fact.
You made a generalization upon all of Christianity based off of one man. Their argument is not based off of one man, but the general Muslim community.
Jerusalem was taken over due to the rapid Muslim aggression. It was fought for by the Crusades to stop the sever persecution of Christians there.
spike
New Member
Nope, the general muslim community speaks out against terrorism. Phelps has followers by the way which I guess represent the general christian community now.
Sure, and the muslims wanted it to stop persecution of muslims. How about the Albigensian Crusade to eliminate the heretical Cathars of southern France? That defensive too?
MrBishop
Well-Known Member
I've never been to the Middle-east, but my bro-in-law has... twice, soon to be thrice...and we talk.Before this goes too much further, how many people arguing here have actually been to the Middle East?
How many are using news sources for information?
How many are using history books for reference?
Just asking...
New-sources...
you gotta learn how to un-spin those.Although the internet is a large source of reference, I tend to fall back on previous readings..history books and their ilk. Just got a nice book on the crusades two christmases ago
I can't copy/paste from a history book onto here tho' , but people insist on supporting text and the internet, by default, is the only place to go.
chcr
Too cute for words
Before this goes too much further, how many people arguing here have actually been to the Middle East?
How many are using news sources for information?
How many are using history books for reference?
Just asking...
1. Never been. My brother's best friend left Iran when the Shah fell (moments ahead of those who would have murdered him and did murder most of his family). His is an interesting perspective with a bias all it's own. We've talked about it at length since we're both kind of chatty anyway.
2. Like Bish says, if you can't figure out where the spin is coming from you pretty much have to dismiss the news source.
3. You know me, I'm a fish for history but you have to unspin it as well. Do you know how many people actually believe the christians won the crusades or that Paul Revere was the actual person that took the "midnight ride?"
Edit for SnP: Or that the confederate states illegally seceded form the union.
I'm not defending their side, just making the distinction.
You actually believe that? From the time of Mohammad, Muslims have been spreading Islam by the sword since the seventh century. The Crusades was a response to their tyranny.
It was defensive too.
Among other things, the Cathars believed that all matter was evil, suicide was commendable. marriage intercourse was evil, abandonment of the wife by the husband was good and visa versa, concubinage was preferable to marriage, and they were against having children.
The Cathars were social anarchists. Despite not repopulating, the Cathars grew by gaining many new recruits. They were growing big in southern France. The chaos they would bring to society was too great to ignore. Not only the Church, but civil authorities saw the problems with the Cathars.
The Catholic Church tried by peaceful means to solve this dire situation. The Church commissioned Dominicans and Franciscans to preach against them. Pope Innocent III sent a personal friend, Peter Costineau, to organize the preaching. The Cathars murdered him.
Then came the Albigensian Crusade, which was the first Crusade to defend Christianity (not to mention, civilization) from within.
spike
New Member
ANd cvhristians have spread christianity by the sword. Damn, you're really gullible to this "my religion never did any wrong" stuff. Themuslims were responding to christian tyranny and vice verca.
Neither side was "defending" so much as attacking and slaughtering.
That's pretty funny take on it
The Cathars proclaimed there existed within mankind a spark of divine light. This light, or spirit, had fallen into captivity within a realm of corruption — identified with the material world. This was a distinct feature of classical Gnosticism, of Manichaeism and of the theology of the Bogomils. This concept of the human condition within Catharism was most probably due to direct and indirect historical influences from these older (and sometimes also violently suppressed) Gnostic movements. According to the Cathars, the world had been created by a lesser deity, much like the figure known in classical Gnostic myth as the Demiurge. This creative force was not the "True God", though he made pretense of being the "one and only God". The Cathars identified this lesser deity, the Demiurge, with Satan. (Most forms of classical Gnosticism had not made this explicit link between the Demiurge and Satan). Essentially, the Cathars believed that the God worshipped by Roman Catholics was an imposter, and his church was a corrupt abomination infused by the failings of the material realm. Spirit — the vital essence of humanity — was thus trapped in a flawed physical realm created by a usurper and ruled by his corrupt minions.
An individual entered into the community of Perfecti through a ritual known as the consolamentum, a rite that was both sacramental and sacerdotal in nature: sacramental in that it granted redemption and liberation from this world; sacerdotal in that those who had received this rite functioned in some ways as the Cathar clergy - though the idea of priesthood was explicitly rejected. The consolamentum was both the baptism of the Holy Spirit, baptismal regeneration, absolution, and ordination all in one. Upon reception of the consolamentum, the new Perfectus surrendered his or her worldly goods to the community, vested himself in a simple black robe with cord belt, and undertook a life dedicated to following the example of Christ and His Apostles — an often peripatetic life of purity, prayer, preaching and charitable work. Above all, the Perfecti were dedicated to helping others find the road that led from a dark land ruled by a dark lord, to the realm of light that they believed to be humankind's first source and ultimate end.
While the Perfecti lived ascetic lives of simplicity, frugality and purity, Cathar credentes (believers) were not expected to adopt the same stringent lifestyle. They were however expected to refrain from eating meat and dairy products, from killing and from swearing oaths. Catharism was above all a popular religion and the numbers of those who considered themselves "believers" in the late twelfth century included a sizable portion of the population of Languedoc, counting among them many noble families and courts. These individuals often married, ate meat, and led relatively normal lives within medieval society — in contrast to the Perfecti, whom they honored as their exemplars. Though unable to embrace immediately a life of complete purity, the credentes looked toward an eventual time when this would be their calling and path.
The slaying of life was abhorrent to the Cathars, just as was the senseless copulation that produced enslavement in matter. Consequently, abstention from all animal food except fish was enjoined of the Perfecti. (The Perfecti apparently avoided eating anything considered to be a by-product of sexual reproduction, including cheese, eggs, milk and butter.) War and capital punishment were also absolutely condemned, an abnormality in the medieval age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism
The "threat" was that they believed differently.
When he came to power in 1198, Pope Innocent III was determined to suppress the Cathars. At first he tried peaceful conversion; however priests sent in to convert the Cathars met with little success. The Cathars were protected by local nobles, and also by bishops who resented papal authority. In 1204 the Pope suspended the authority of the bishops in the south of France, appointing papal legates. In 1206 the Pope sought support for action from the nobles of Languedoc. Noblemen who protected the Cathars were excommunicated. Over many decades sieges and battles broke out between those protecting the Cathars and those seeking to overcome them; this series of military campaigns is known as the Albigensian Crusade and ended in pro-Cathar surrender when the French King intervened in 1229.
After the surrender the Medieval Inquisition was given almost unlimited power to suppress the Cathar heretics. Cathars were forced to recant or else they were sent to the galleys, slaughtered or burned.
Defensive?
